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Thread: Calibrate Scales

  1. #21
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by 375RUGER View Post
    A quality electronic scale should have come with check weights.
    Exactly. I bought an electronic scale, thinking it would be the best thing since sliced bread. It wasn't. I use the balance beam scale far more often.

  2. #22
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    If using coins as check weights, use the same coins each time so wear isn't a factor. I have the Lyman weight set but find coins much handier to let me know if the electronic scale is where it should be. I trust the balance beam more tho. I like the paperclip idea for small weights.
    Loren

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by nueces5 View Post
    To verify the veracity of a balance, I use a sierra matchking of known weight.
    I have never been disappointed.
    Agree...no real need for check weights. Even "cheap" jacketed bullets are adequately consistent...at least in my experience.

    For lower weights...use air gun pellets.
    Don Verna


  4. #24
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    I trust my balance beam units, the one on my bench shelf hasnt moved since it was placed there. the electronic units that have migrated in and out all seem to be irritated by fluorescent light fixtures, and battery condition. even when used with the power supply transformers they were not consistent. Check weights, of some kind, are a needed tool on any loading bench..

  5. #25
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    At what price is a digital scale no longer "cheap"? The biggest drawback for me and digital scales is trickling up. I owned 3 three, the first was about 20 years ago and I paid over $100 for it. It would jump .2-.3 gr. when attempting to trickle up. No matter how slow I would go, it often jumped sometimes even to .4 gr. But one day it would no longer "tare" and soon died all together. Then another digital but from a known manufacturer/vendor and the same, not good for trickling (I had to trickle a bit, remove/replace the pan and pause). I got another one just a month ago and it came in a nice plastic case with power supply and it is large enough to see and handle. IIRC it was over $90. But for trickling up the same problem happens, no matter how slow I tickle it will jump .2-.3 gr. So it's back to trickle a few granules, lift/replace the pan and pause. And I've kept fluorescent lights away, use the power supply not batteries, no breeze, and no other electronic/electrical devices within 12'.The main reason for me trickling up to .1 gr. is for load work ups and my 32 ACP and 380 ACP there are some powders with less than a half grain from min. to max....
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  6. #26
    Boolit Master 1bluehorse's Avatar
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    I don't know why some have so much trouble with electronic scales. I have two, an RCBS Chargemaster 1500 and an RCBS 750 Rangemaster. I also have three BB scales, an RCBS 1010, a Hornady and an old Lyman 500. The balance beam scales I spent some time calibrating them across the scale, they are now all three good throughout. (at least up to 500gr. that's are far as I tested today). The RCBS electronic scales I've owned for over 10 years and today are still as accurate as when new. I just now went in, calibrated them, and tested both against two of my balance beams up through 450gr. starting at 10gr. All read within .1 of each other. The Hornady was the one that was off .1 light on ONE of the readings. I use the electronic ones the most, always calibrate before use, verify with check weights, a 10 then add a 20 then another 20, and I "usually" will do an occasional check between a BB and the electronic as I load, but trust each one as much as the other. All that takes about 5 minutes tops.

    If this seems a "bit" extreme accuracy wise it none the less is true. I did not go up the "scale" in 10gr increments. Started at 10 then went two 20's then jumped to a 308.9 (calibration weight) then to 468 (another calibration weight) and the above is the results I got.
    Last edited by 1bluehorse; 06-07-2020 at 12:30 PM.

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy sparkyv's Avatar
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    Win 22LR cases weigh right at 10.0 grains. Easy-peasy check weights...not for use as calibration weights.

  8. #28
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    Don't forget, beam balances can be off due to dust in the pivots. I discovered that when working on max rifle loads and compared to the digital. Even the check weight was off. This scale sat protected on a closed cabinet shelf. Google this site for other experience.
    Good luck

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Luber View Post
    Don't forget, beam balances can be off due to dust in the pivots. I discovered that when working on max rifle loads and compared to the digital. Even the check weight was off. This scale sat protected on a closed cabinet shelf. Google this site for other experience.
    Good luck
    Yup a dirty, chipped or worn agate bearings/knife edge system are all issues with beam scales. It happens more than most realize.

    Never used him but this guy has a great rep for repairs or increasing sensitivity. https://www.facebook.com/Single-Kern...6037570185688/
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 06-07-2020 at 08:35 PM.
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  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    My Pact II electronic scale came with 2 check weights and a procedure for calibrating that used first the lighter, then the heavier, then both together to get an approximation of linearity. Until I did that very carefully (several times) it was wildly inaccurate. I still don't trust it for powder.

    A proper set of check weights is a necessary item for the tool kit in any case. Even the best balance beams can be off. Pennies, dimes, .22 hulls, etc. are not accurate enough. Not even near.

    My .02
    Cognitive Dissident

  11. #31
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    I do have check weights and my Denver Instrument MXX-123 is rock solid.

    https://www.6mmbr.com/mxx123test.html

    I tried several other electronic scales before Denver Instrument MXX-123 and I would not recommend any of them. The Denver Instrument MXX-123 is not made anymore more I do highly recommend it.

    This is the current version but i know nothing about it. https://www.coleparmer.com/i/cole-pa...00032?pubid=EW
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 06-07-2020 at 11:22 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's the kind of money you have to invest to get a decent electronic.

    btw that Cole-Parmer at the link apparently doesn't read out in grains.
    Cognitive Dissident

  13. #33
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    It does have a custom?? "g, oz, ct, dr, ozt, GN, N, tl T, tl H, tl S, custom" Don't know anything other than its the replacement for the Denver Instrument MXX-123. I hope my Denver Instrument MXX-123 lasts longer than I do. I have a RCBS 10-10 and a couple of Ohaus Dail-O-grains but I much prefer to use the Denver Instrument MXX-123. I have a couple of other electronic scales but they are average at best.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  14. #34
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    OP - with your initial difference of 7.4 grains at the higher rifle powder weights, it is well within your financial grasp (before the purchase of test weights - highly recommended btw) to TEST the beam vs. the digital against the Mfg's stated weight of one (1) of their bullets. This test WILL determine which scale is closest to the bullet's stated weight.

    Test weigh, on each scale, one Mfg's bullet. This is immediately more accurate than one of your scale readings. It isn't "exact", but for one scale it is "closest to the pin" for zero dollars invested.

    mdi, et al - some powered scales are only good for +/-0.50 grains in the first place (filtering of vibrations). Your 0.1 to 0.3 grain increments may not register swiftly or accurately due to the "truncation routine" that is programmed in your electronic scale. Getting the scale's programming to decide what to display is a problem for scale manufacturers:

    Strain Gage Load Cell...tiny bend changes the electrical characteristics of the strain gage
    producing a very small change in its output...amplify this signal up to a measurable level then
    convert it from an analog to digital value that the computer inside your scale can read and convert
    to a weight.

    If the computer displayed the actual readings it was receiving from the load cell you would find
    the scale all but unusable. There are two reasons for this; first of all, because of the speed that this
    electronic stuff whirls around, the scale picks up every little vibration and puff of wind in the room
    and instantly amplifies it. Secondly, in the great scheme of things, a tenth of a grain, one seventy
    thousandth of a pound, is a real small thing to pin down and measure.

    The computer in your scale acts as a filter deciding, in fractions of a second, whether or not to
    allow a given reading onto the display...The goal is to provide a display that is
    both very stable when the weight is stable, yet changes very quickly when the weight changes, all
    the while filtering out wind and repetitive vibrations.
    Last edited by Land Owner; 06-08-2020 at 07:01 AM.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 375RUGER View Post
    A quality electronic scale should have come with check weights.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I feel this way too.


    Thousand(s) dollar hobby, priceless hands and eyes and the cheapest scale money can buy. Hmmm.

    As has been said - Check weights are a must. If you are playing with gunpowder, at the very least it seems like the smart thing to do.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I keep two check weights handy and a full set stored if needed.
    It is good to know how much powder you put in the case.
    Chill Wills

  16. #36
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    Let me show my ignorance here.

    What is it that matters? Is it that the readout on the calibrated scale using the check weight is the same that the manufacturer got weighing the same item? Is it that the number is always the same any time you weigh the same item? Is it that there consistent increase in the number when weight is added?

    Coming from a pistol cartridge reloading background, where a range of +\- 0.1 grains can be 5-6% of the charge and is considered within the error of both the scale and the measure and doesn't appreciably affect internal or external ballistics, it's easy to assume that, so long as the same amount of powder gives the same number on the scale, that you're good so long as you're not pushing the edge of the envelope. A risky assumption with rifle loads, I'm guessing.

  17. #37
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    kevin c - yes and yes to your 2nd and 3rd questions. Scales must be calibrated so that scale users can talk apples to apples. If you are following a Mfg's load recipe and your scale is "off" by (say) +7.8 grains (the OP's difference between his scales), then as you increase your powder charge it should not be unexpected WHEN your gun disintegrates, because you are not on the same page as the Mfg. of that recipe. After calibration, in order for the scale to be of any reliable use, it MUST reflect a series of increasing check weights for the reloader as was calibrated by the Mfg., AND the expressed weight of a component (individual coin, case, boolit, etc.) should not vary if that component has not been altered (given that the reloader didn't move from [say] Alabama to Greenland, where a physical change in the gravity "constant" MIGHT be a consideration).

    No, to the way in which you worded your 4th question (and I may be being a "word snob" rather than "reading between the lines" to another meaning). If I add 0.10 grains to a load, I would like my scale to increase its readout by 0.10 grains (one [1] seventy thousandths of a pound, is a real small thing to pin down and measure - as quoted above). If I add (say) 7.8 grains to a load, likewise, I want the readout, or beam, to correspondingly reflect that too. Are those two examples "a consistent increase", meaning (to me) "the same"? No. What matters, your 1st question, is that your 7.8 (or whatever) grain increase and my 7.8 (or whatever) grain increase are reflected the same by each of our calibrated scales.

    Consider that some shooters, including winning competitive shooters, don't measure with a scale or by charge weight, but by consistent VOLUME of powder in their cases.

    Chill-Wills is right thinking in his comment - considering personal health and safety!
    Last edited by Land Owner; 06-09-2020 at 05:44 AM.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  18. #38
    Boolit Buddy sparkyv's Avatar
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    Any common item that does not change weight can be used as a check weight (again, not for calibration). You just have to know its actual weight. Why do you say they are not "accurate enough", uscra?

    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    A proper set of check weights is a necessary item for the tool kit in any case. Even the best balance beams can be off. Pennies, dimes, .22 hulls, etc. are not accurate enough. Not even near.

    My .02

  19. #39
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    You don’t know the weight of them in advance. W/ a set of check weights you know exactly what they’re supposed to weigh before you place them on a scale. W/ coins and such you will have to Weigh them to determine the weight. And you have no way of knowing if the scale you’re weighing them on is correct.

    Another thing to note about check weights is you are not supposed to handle them w/ your hands. Use a set of tweezers. The oils on your hands can change the weights over time. Is this really important for reloading purposes, probably not. But I prefer I to follow instructions.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1bluehorse View Post
    I don't know why some have so much trouble with electronic scales.
    It's because, as a group, electronic scales are flaky. And they rarely follow a trickler in real time.

    Seems everyone loves their digital scales, at least until they crap out ... and they will crap out! I've been reloading a long time and I've never even heard of a beam scale drifting or quiting unless the user physically damaged it.

    The balance beam scales I spent some time calibrating them across the scale, they are now all three good throughout. (at least up to 500gr. that's are far as I tested today).
    You just calibrated three balance scales? That's very interesting.

    Knowing how balance beam scales work, I have to wonder: How far off were they before you calibrated them and what did you do to them to bring them back into line?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
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LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check