Winchester does not differentiate between standard and magnum LP primers?

[Patrick L]

Why not use the primer that the reloading manual used?

Because we are talking in a shortage, where you sometimes need to take what you can get

[downzero]

Winchester primers are formulated to ignite their ball powders which requires more heat to light off then say IMR powders. When using ball powders I use mag primers, started this after getting a set of electronic muffs and there was an occasional but definite click of the firing pin falling before the boom. This stopped with the magnum primers when using Win 748 or Hogdon BLC2.

Ball powders should never be loaded with non-magnum primers, as you learned. No book would so recommend.

I like Winchester LPP because they work with H110 and I keep them around for that very reason. I prefer CCI for everything else.

I've switched from H110 to 2400 in hopes of similar performance without having to stock and keep magnum primers. What I've found is that the loads almost match the performance of H110 (-50 fps out of my 4" .357s in exchange for 20% less powder used, to me that is about equal!).

I haven't loaded 2400 yet in .45 Colt but I'm hoping for similar results.

[Burnt Fingers]

Ball powders should never be loaded with non-magnum primers, as you learned. No book would so recommend.

I like Winchester LPP because they work with H110 and I keep them around for that very reason. I prefer CCI for everything else.

I've switched from H110 to 2400 in hopes of similar performance without having to stock and keep magnum primers. What I've found is that the loads almost match the performance of H110 (-50 fps out of my 4" .357s in exchange for 20% less powder used, to me that is about equal!).

I haven't loaded 2400 yet in .45 Colt but I'm hoping for similar results.

Really?

My H110 loads for the 300 Blackout don't specify magnum primers and they have no problem going off. I also load Heavy Pistol powder and it doesn't call for magnum primers.

CFE Blackout and CFE Pistol are ball powders and don't require magnum primers. You better call Sierra and tell them they are wrong.

[dragon813gt]

All ball powders do not require magnum primers. Some ball powders, like H110/W296, are recommended to be used w/ magnum primers by the powder manufacturer.

[Burnt Fingers]

All ball powders do not require magnum primers. Some ball powders, like H110/W296, are recommended to be used w/ magnum primers by the powder manufacturer.

Talk to downzero.

He's the one that made the statement that ball powders should NEVER be loaded with standard primers.

[megasupermagnum]

Ball powders should never be loaded with non-magnum primers, as you learned. No book would so recommend.

I can think of hundreds of examples where this is untrue. Actually I can only think of a couple of examples where this is true. Even H110, this isn't always the case. Go to Hodgdon's website, they recommend a Remington 2 1/2 for all 44 magnum loads. Granted, you would likely see a benefit to the super light 180 grain bullets in 44 magnum, but I find better accuracy and consistency with standard primers for the heavier bullets 310 and 330 gr.

Accurate powders entire lineup is ball powder. I've never seen a magnum primer recommended for them. Even AA#9 seems to prefer the standard primers.

HS6, works great with standard primers

Many of the other Winchester powders are ball powders, standard primers work there.

[DougGuy]

All ball powders do not require magnum primers. Some ball powders, like H110/W296, are recommended to be used w/ magnum primers by the powder manufacturer.

And here am I, using WLP for all of my pistol loads, H110 and 2400 included, never saw any shortcomings so far.

[gwpercle]

Because we are talking in a shortage, where you sometimes need to take what you can get

LIKE !!! hitting our like button

Stocking up for a shortage ... If they are sitting on the shelf ... buy all of them.
They will work just fine .
Gary

[Larry Gibson]

Interesting, I did not know that Winchester now has the WLRM in blue boxes as the store I frequent doesn't seem to stock them.
Larry, have you done any testing on WLR vs WLRM?

No, not yet. Hopefully things will improve and they'll be on LGS shelves again shortly......

[Larry Gibson]

"I can think of hundreds of examples where this is untrue."

I would make that a blanket statement. I've had enough hangfires in colder weather in 357, 41 and 44 magnums using standard CCI and Federal primers under H110/296 in past years that I now only use Winchester WSP and WLP or CCI 350 or 550 magnum primers in those cartridges with those powders. Not a single hangfire since switching to magnum strength powders.

The faster burning ball powders in handgun cartridges are most often ignited just fine with standard primers. In rifle cartridges I also experienced hangfires with standard strength SR and LR primers. In cold weather. Switching to WSR/SR magnum and WLR/LR magnum primers has resulted in no hangfires. The burning rate of ball powders is basically controlled by the deterrent the powder is coated with. The slower the burning rate the heavier the deterrent and thus the great the heat of the primer is needed for efficient ignition and burn.

[fouronesix]

"I can think of hundreds of examples where this is untrue."

I would make that a blanket statement. I've had enough hangfires in colder weather in 357, 41 and 44 magnums using standard CCI and Federal primers under H110/296 in past years that I now only use Winchester WSP and WLP or CCI 350 or 550 magnum primers in those cartridges with those powders. Not a single hangfire since switching to magnum strength powders.

The faster burning ball powders in handgun cartridges are most often ignited just fine with standard primers. In rifle cartridges I also experienced hangfires with standard strength SR and LR primers. In cold weather. Switching to WSR/SR magnum and WLR/LR magnum primers has resulted in no hangfires. The burning rate of ball powders is basically controlled by the deterrent the powder is coated with. The slower the burning rate the heavier the deterrent and thus the great the heat of the primer is needed for efficient ignition and burn.

Yep,
Plenty of incidents recorded to back that up. I remember a string of squib and hang fire reports from 44 Mag hangunners in AK a few years ago. Seems they were trying to use heavy charges of 110/296 for bear defense and late season hunting loads and experiencing hang fires and squibs in cold weather. Imagine the "stop-go-stop" ignition scenario potential in a revolver. Ughh! Primer fires. Bullet is pushed into forcing cone and stops. Main charge ignites and the stuck bullet acts somewhat like a bore obstruction!

I see no reason to not use mag type primers with known hard to ignite ball powders. If worried about higher pressures from mag primer, reduce charge and use a chronograph to work up load.

[USSR]

Winchester's ball powders are not all the same regarding ease of ignition. W540 and W571 (HS-6 and HS-7) benefit greatly from a magnum primer, yet I've never heard of anyone recommending a magnum primer for W231.

Don

[megasupermagnum]

Yep,
Plenty of incidents recorded to back that up. I remember a string of squib and hang fire reports from 44 Mag hangunners in AK a few years ago. Seems they were trying to use heavy charges of 110/296 for bear defense and late season hunting loads and experiencing hang fires and squibs in cold weather. Imagine the "stop-go-stop" ignition scenario potential in a revolver. Ughh! Primer fires. Bullet is pushed into forcing cone and stops. Main charge ignites and the stuck bullet acts somewhat like a bore obstruction!

I see no reason to not use mag type primers with known hard to ignite ball powders. If worried about higher pressures from mag primer, reduce charge and use a chronograph to work up load.

For H110/W296, sure. It's a great powder, but not the only ball powder in existence. Not by a long shot.

I never tried HS-7, HS-6 is not a problem with standard primers, and magnum primers performed worse for me.

I stand by my original statement. Sure, there is a couple of examples where a particular ball powder almost needs a magnum primer. Hundreds was an overstatement, but I can think of at least a dozen ball powders that work great with standard primers. The idea that "all ball powders require a magnum primer, or risk squib loads or worse" is a false blanket statement.

[fouronesix]

All true that most of the time standard primers light ball powders. But I didn't start the all or never discussion. Simple fact, if you want to flirt with a preventable potential problem with delayed ignition or occasional squib with certain ball powders in cold conditions by all means use a mild primer. Simple.

[Loudenboomer]

CHOOSING THE RIGHT PRIMER - A PRIMER ON PRIMERS

Based on an article by John Barsness - GUNS magazine pg 26 May 2009. [JB, formerly of Handloader is one of the most qualified gunwriters when it comes to primers and reloading in general]
Information from the Speer #14, Hornady #7, Nosler#6, and Lyman #49 reloading manuals, Alliant and Accurate Arms data.
Additional Information from James Calhoon - "Primers and Pressure" Varmint Hunter Magazine, October, 1995

Hopefully this explains a bit more about, not only primers in general, but specific characteristics that can aid a reloader in choosing the optimum sparkplug. Pertinent information will be added to this section when more information becomes available.

BRISANCE

Primers come in different strengths, technically known as “brisance,” a word defined as “the shattering effect of a high explosive.”
Primer brisance mostly depends on the length of the flame that leaps out of the flash-hole after the firing pin whacks the primer cup. This flame can also be manipulated to last a little longer, by adding tiny particles of other flammable material to the priming compound. These differences really can effect not just accuracy but pressure.

For instance, in a very small rifle cartridge such as the .22 Hornet, a “hotter” primer might start to dislodge the bullet before the powder really gets going. Instead of a relatively gentle, slowly accelerating push, the bullet gets cruelly hit hard. This is why some Hornet fans use small pistol primers, with much milder brisance than small rifle primers.

Really huge rifle cases such as the biggest Weatherbys, Remington Ultra Mags, and older British African cartridges require a lot of very slow-burning powder to operate at all. Slower-burning powders are normally more difficult to ignite, and a bigger flame of longer duration helps, especially in cooler weather. The first “magnum” primer, the Federal 215 was designed for this very purpose. Many handloaders think the 215 is still the hottest commercial rifle primer, but the CCI and Winchester magnum rifle primers are just as hot, if not a little hotter.

Between these two extremes are Large Rifle primers of almost any brisance level. Remington and CCI primers tend to be the mildest “standard” primers and Winchesters the hottest (the reason that Winchester never had a magnum rifle LR primer until recently), with Federals somewhere between. Deciding which to use depends not only on the size of the case but the powder.

How fast a powder burns depends not only on granule size (bigger granules have more relative surface area) but on exterior coatings. Extruded powders, such as relatively small-grained 4895 or large-grained H-4831 depend mostly on granule size to control burning rate. Ball powders don’t vary much in granule size, so depend mostly on relatively flame-resistant exterior coatings to control burning rate. By definition, these coatings make ball powders harder to ignite.

For example, in the 30-06, IMR 4895 is very easy to ignite, one reason it’s often suggested for reduced loads down to 2/3 of a case’s capacity. We’ll probably get the very best accuracy from a mild primer such as the CCI 200.
To make the 30-06 zip however, we might try Ramshot Big Game. The Ramshot ball powders burn cleaner than most ball powders, but they also require more flame. Winchester Large Rifle primers are the hottest “standard” rifle primer and often perform very well with Ramshot powders, but if they don’t definitely try a magnum primer. This can often result in smaller groups.

Something else to remember is that competition rifle shooters often favor mild primers i.e. primers that produce just enough heat to properly ignite the powder. They feel that as primer brisance gets higher, it also gets less repeatable from primer to primer. Another train of thought is that the powder is ignited a tad more gently. When this happens, the front slope of the pressure curve is less steep. Which means the bullet is pushed a tad more gently into the rifling which tends to deform it less. Whatever the scientific reason, competitive rifle shooters seem to feel that the milder primers give both better velocity uniformity and accuracy.

The same principles also applies to handgun cases. You might find that magnum primers aren’t good for milder loads, especially with cast bullets for some reason or another (Elmer Keith claimed that the hot flame tended to slightly melt the base of the bullet - no way of knowing if that is true.) Whatever the case, often using a standard pistol primer can reduce group size with milder or cast loads.
On the other hand, magnum primers are almost always recommended for magnum loads, especially if hard-to-ignite ball powders like W296, or its H-110 twin, are used. In fact, magnum pistol primers were developed for the large case revolver magnums like the .357, .41, and .44 Magnums. They seldom are needed for standard autoloader rounds or standards like the .38 Special.
Some powder manufacturers recommend standard pistol primers with certain of their powders even in magnum pistol loads. Alliant 2400 is one where the use of magnum primers is strongly discouraged, and another is Accurate Arms, which recommends standard pistol primers with their handgun powders, including #9, unless “they provide better accuracy in your firearm.”

There also is an unusual situation that should be considered when deciding whether to use standard or magnum primers with ball powders that is pointed out in the Speer manual: Powder manufacturers may state that their propellents do not require magnum primers. This is generally true at maximum safe pressure levels. But Speer’s ballistic testing fully explores propellent behavior over the usable range of charge weights. They often found that a particular propellent works fine with standard CCI primers at the maximum safe pressure. However it may not consistently ignite with lower charge weights. In the lower pressure regimes typical of “starting loads” they commonly saw increased extremes of pressure and velocity. Some ball powders ignited by standard CCI primers will even produce short hang-fires–called “click-bangs” for obvious reasons–at start load levels but not at maximum safe pressure. In those cases the use of magnum CCI primers to insure performance over the range of charge weights is recommended (or perhaps a switch to a hotter standard primer such as the Winchester WLR).

So as you can see, picking the right primer brisance can be very important and can give you optimum accuracy and consistent performance. Fortunately for us there are primers of every brisance level in every category of primer, whether it be standard or magnum.

CUP THICKNESS

Different primers have different cup thicknesses. You can see the importance of cup thickness when primers are considered for semiautomatic rifles that have free-floating firing pins. This topic is discussed in greater detail in the post "MILSPEC PRIMERS FOR SEMI-AUTOS FAQ AND INFO" that follows the primer chart.

Handgun primers have thinner cups than rifle primers, making them easier to ignite with the typically weaker firing pin fall of handguns. Small Pistol primer cups are .017" thick, while Large Pistol primer cups are .020" thick. This is the reason using handgun primers in .22 Hornet rifle loads sometimes results in pierced primers in some guns. Obviously their substitution in the high pressure .223 Remington would not be a good idea.

Even the same type of primers from different manufacturers can have different cup thickness. Federal primers tend to have thinner cups than Winchester, Remington and CCI primers. On occasion this can be handy. Some revolver trigger and action lightening jobs may result in a lighter hammer fall that results in not all the primers going off. A switch to Federal pistol primers can make the load 100% again. The same thing can happen in cold weather with some “modern” bolt actions with light, fast firing pins. These are supposed to whack primers with the same approximate energy as an old-fashioned 98 Mauser strike, but under some adverse conditions they can occasionally use a little help. Federal primers can provide that help.
With Remington small rifle primers, the 6 ½ primer has a thin cup and is not recommended for higher pressure rounds like the common .223 Remington. It was intended for the .22 Hornet. When Remington introduced their .17 Remington round in 1971 they found that the 6 ½ primer was not suitable to the high-pressure .17. The 7 ½ BR primer was developed for this reason. According to Remington, the 7 ½ has a 25% greater cup thickness and they state on their web site: "In rifle cartridges, the 6-1/2 small rifle primer should not be used in the 17 Remington, 222 Remington or the 223 Remington. The 7-1/2 BR is the proper small rifle primer for these rounds."
CCI/Speer Technical Services says: "The CCI 400 primer does have a thinner cup bottom than CCI 450, #41 or BR4 primers... [with] the CCI #41 primer... there is more 'distance' between the tip of the anvil and the bottom of the cup." so that is their AR15 recommendation, although it seems like there are no complaints with using the BR4 and 450 primers by AR15 shooters and reloaders, in general. The #41 just gives you a little more safety margin for free-floating firing pins and would be the best choice for commercial reloaders who have no control over the rifles their .223 ammo is used in.

Another factor which determines the strength of a primer cup is the work hardened state of the brass used to make the primer cup. They are made with cartridge brass (70% copper, 30% zinc), which can vary from 46,000 psi, soft, to 76,000 psi tensile strength when fully hardened. Manufacturers specify to their brass suppliers the hardness of brass desired. It is possible that a primer manufacturer could choose a harder brass in order to keep material thickness down and reduce costs. Winchester WSR primers are somewhat thin, yet seem to be resistant to slam-fires and this is likely due to this hardness factor.

Large rifle primers all appear to have the same cup thickness of .027", no matter what the type.

This also affects pressure tolerance. Cases that utilize small rifle primers and operate at moderate pressures(40,000 psi) should use CCI 400, Federal 200, Rem 6 1/2, or Win WSR. Such cases include 22 CCM, 22 Hornet and the 218 Bee. These primers can also used in handguns such as the 9mm., 357, etc. Other cases that use the small rifle primer can use the above primers only if moderate loads are used. Keep to the lower end of reloading recommendations.
Cases that utilize Small Rifle primers and operate at higher pressures (55,000 psi) should use CCI 450, CCI BR4, Fed 205 and Rem 7 1/2 etc.

MATCH or BENCH REST PRIMERS

The difference between match primers and standard primers is the degree of testing and quality control used in their making. Hornady reports that in their research that match-grade primers performed very, very consistently from load to load as measured in their pressure tests. CCI states that Benchrest cups and anvils are selected for exceptional uniformity. During the assembly operation, the operator who meters the primer mix into the cups (or "charger") is chosen from the most experienced workers with an outstanding record of consistency. The BR line runs at a little slower pace to provide time for extra inspection.

STORING YOUR PRIMERS

Primers can be damaged by extreme heat, cold, and humidity. Therefore proper storage is necessary. We have seen primer shortages and therefore runs on primers by people stocking up for the future. What would be the use of having 20k primers if you don't store them properly and they deteriorate?

Heat dries out the priming compound making it brittle and subject to disintegration during the seating process, causing a misfire. Further, the primer can still detonate if you try to disassemble misfired rounds and punch out the "bad" primer. That is one reason that de-priming "live" primers is discouraged. High humidity can cause the priming compound to be too wet to detonate properly as well. Therefore you should take pains to store primers in a cool, dry place. No garages, attics, sheds, or damp basements. Desiccant in the larger container that holds your primer boxes is probably a good idea if it is humid where you live.

Metal ammo cans are popular for storing various items like ammo and brass among reloaders. However they should not be used to store your primers in (or your powder as well). If anything sets off those primers (or lights off the powder), the metal can just adds shrapnel. Of course you shouldn't store primers and powder together for obvious reason.

There are watertight plastic ammo cans like MTM's Sportsman's Dry Box [#SDB-0] or their military-sized (AC30C & AC50C caliber) O-ring sealed plastic ammo cans available, or you could use some type of wooden box etc. that would be a better choice than the usual G.I. steel ammo can for your primer storage.