Winchester 1873 44-40 cast bullet load

[Matt44-40]

Hi Guys,

Matt here from South Africa. I have been scratching for loss, but due to the max limit of 11 000 psi I don’t want to use just any load data and as far as I understand not all powders are suitable for cast bullets.

So I am looking for a safe load for a 44-40 Winchester model 1873. 24 inch barrel. I am using a 200gr Ohaus mold. Specs says 0.427 bullet diameter, will check when I cast my first bullets and see if sizing is required.

I have new Starline brass and planning on using CCI or Stellier and Bellot large pistol primers. (I have so large rifle primers as well)

I still need to by powder. We have a limited supply of Hodgdon, Alliant, Lovex and Vivhatouri powders available locally. Unfortunately no 2400, RE7 or unique.

Any other suggestions?

I also have 100 250gr cast bullets, but someone told me not to shoot them in the 1873 as the action is too week. Is this true? If not, any loads available for 250gr cast bullets?

Will really appreciate some help.

Regards
Matt


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[missionary5155]

Good Morning Matt and WELCOME !!
Treat your 1873 kindly and it will last another 100 years. Is this an original 1873 ?
But if you are going to shoot smokeless powder it is very important to measure the groove diameter at the chamber area Your slug is a piston and must contain the pressure at the bullet base. Hot gas is not good sliding up on the sides of the lead.
If the groove diameter is .430 I would want a slug at least .431..
We have several 44-40 rifles made before 1908 and they all need different diameter lead slugs to shoot well.
Mike in LLama Land

[warren5421]

First make sure anything you load in the magazine tube is a flat point bullet. I like a 200 gr RNFP loaded in front of a fiber wad with max load of Hodgdon 777 compressed about 3mm, about 35 gr by volume, large pistol primer, and Star-Line brass.

I play cowboy here (SASS) and the .44WCF is my cartage if not shooting cap and ball.

My favorite load is IMR SR4756, 8.4-9.3 gr, WLP primer, Star-Line case, 200 gr RNFP sized to .429"/10.90mm. I have 2 Colt SAA's in .44WCF, 3 rifles, a 73, a lighting, and a 92 and all like a different powder load but all shot good with this powder for me.

The load I shot the most is 25 gr FFFg black powder plus filler for the pistols and 35 gr FFFg in the rifles. I use a soft lead bullet with a very big lube groove with a lube made to shoot with black powder. I compress the powder about .25"/6mm. Works very will on deer size game.

You can use:
HP-38 5.5-6.5 gr
Universal 6.5-7.0 gr
W 231 5.5-6.4 gr
Titegroup 5.0-6.2 gr
Unique 6.0-8.0 gr
XMP-5744 13.5-17.0 GR

The loads are out of the OREGON TRAIL BULLET COMPANY LASER-CAST RELOADING MANUAL first edition. https://oregontrailbullets.com/xcart...oad-manual.pdf

Enjoy that rifle and good hunting.

[Matt44-40]

Hi Mike,

As far as I know it’s original.

I’ve considered slugging it, but it freaks me out to do it too such an old fire-arm. Feels like I might break something


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[missionary5155]

Yep looks like a real Winchester to me !! If you look under the lever (lower tang) there is a long # which is the serial #. If you will type the first 4 nunbers and just an XXXX for the rest we an let you know what year it was made.

[Matt44-40]

4376xxB, was not sure if the B was of any importance


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[missionary5155]

Probably a third model as the 1st and 2nd had extra screws.
Slug the groove with a very soft lead slug and nothing will be hurt. Fishing weights or muzzle loader round balls are good. A brass rod or wood dowel for tapping the slug through the barrel.
Clean barrel and lightly oat the slug with oil

[Matt44-40]

Here is a better photo of the action


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[missionary5155]

The book shows 1891

[missionary5155]

Well I have to get moving.... Nice rifle !!!

[Matt44-40]

Thanks man


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[Larry Gibson]

Savvy Jack has done a lot of pressure testing of loads for the 44-40, you might do a search for his posts/threads or check on the Cast Bullet Assoc. forum as there is a current thread by him there on the 44-40. He also has a site of his on with a plethora of 44-40 load information.

I have done some vicarious pressure test of 44-40 loads and have found 6 gr of Bullseye under a 200 gr cast is right at the SAAMI MAP of 11,000 psi for the 44-40.

[Wayne Smith]

Or, if available, simply load a case full of gun powder, now known as black powder! That's how I load mine.

[Ajohns]

If the rifle is in good shape, a load of H or IMR 4227 at 17 - 18grs is an alright start. As long as your lead of choice is sized proper.

[Outpost75]

+1 on the 6 grains of Bullseye and 200-grain bullet. I use the same load in my 1905 Colt Frontier Six Shooter. I use 1 to 40 tin-lead and size bullets .430"

Attachment 263115

[Reverend Al]

Again, slug your barrel to determine the required bullet diameter. I had a nearly identical 1873 Winchester also mfg in 1891 and shot mine using the RCBS 200 grain cast bullet (likely the same mould as your Ohaus version) at .430" with 9.0 grains of Unique. It would keep all 15 rounds (full magazine rifle so it held 14 in the mag tube and one up the spout) on the 200 yard steel gong at our local range. Shoot it and enjoy it ...

[cowboy4evr]

I can tell you that the 6.0 grs of Bullseye powder is real nice . Easy to shoot , easy on the gun and very accurate . I got that load from Outpost75 . I have an 1894 Marlin , low 3 digit serial # . I use the LEE 200 gr RNFP .427 mold . I get bullets over .429 out of my mold . Regards Paul

[Matt44-40]

Hi Guys, thanks for the replies so far. Seems like the only powder mentioned available locally is IMR 4227.


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[Ajohns]

It's good powder but only in moderation, no 1892 Winchester loads. The 17 - 18 grs I mentioned should be ok in your rifle, start at 17. If accuracy with lead goes bad quick, you may want to try as big a slug as will fit chambered. And try keep the hardness down. Softer the better.

[Savvy Jack]

Hi Guys, thanks for the replies so far. Seems like the only powder mentioned available locally is IMR 4227.


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Not sure how I missed this topic!

Since it is a year old, you probably already found your desired load.

IMR-4227 basically replaced #1204 which was (IMR) #1204. 4227 is borderline for the 44-40 lighter loads. It really needs pressure to burn they way it should. Lightly loaded, safe for the Winchester 73', it can leave unburnt powder and can be position sensitive. It's certainly not a bad powder or it wouldn't be advertised for the 44-40.

In order to be "safe" for the Winchester 73' (Group I rifles), Lyman lists only 17gr max with the 427098 bullet. My tests in a 20" barrel yielded 1,127fps @ a fairly mild 9,389 psi as an average over ten shots fired. SAAMI lists 11,000psi as MAP. Depending on your bore size, it could be more or less with larger or smaller diameter bullets used.

For Group II rifles, Lyman lists 20.5gr with a Speer #4425 JHP. These are factory sized .429 and should only be used in .429 barrels. Here is were it gets tricky. This max load gave me 1,297fps @ 12,200psi which I personally feel is safe for the new replica 73's. HOWEVER, I would not push the issue except for hunting, for your loads could give different results. Also, the main problem in these loads is knowing your bore size and using the appropriate sized bullets in accordance.

2400 powder (introduced in 1932) is basically the same but burns a tad faster thus less charges should be used in comparison with IMR-4227. Both are mid-range rifle powders specifically used in the 22 Hornet, 25-20 types as well as the 30-06. Both powders referred to as Magnum powders now days because of their popularity use in the 357/44 Magnum variants.

Contrary to popular belief, Magnum powders are nothing more than slower burning rifle powders while the faster burning pistol powders like Unique and Bullseye are more dangerous. Bullseye has been around since 1899 and Unique since 1900 and were widely used in the 44-40 cartridges. IMR-4227 was developed about a year after the introduction of the 357 Magnum and directly replaced #1204. #1204 was developed in 1925 and was widely used in the dash calibers like the 25-20, 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40. These powders were loaded a bit hotter back in the 1930's compared to what is published today. Care should certainly be taken as not to exceed safe pressures for the 73's design and even the revolver's weaker design.

Just to add;

Winchester used Dupont #2 from the 73's introduction back in 1895, up to the early 1920's. Winchester switched to Sharpshooter from the early 1920's and eventually stopped using it by the late 1950's to very early 1960's, both rifle powders. I personally have seen a mixture of use between Ball powder (samples from August 1949 by Western) and Sharpshooter (samples as late as 1944) but has been said that Sharpshooter has been used up to the early early 1960's.

With that, handloaders have had the option of using quite a few powders. The main powders of choice, aside from Sharpshooter, seem to be pistol powers...Bullseye, Unique, and rifle powders...1204, SR80, then IMR-4227.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=2085097263

Here is a powder time-line I have been working on
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1535991811