WidenersRotoMetals2MidSouth Shooters SupplyRepackbox
Titan ReloadingInline FabricationLee PrecisionADvertise here

Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Do you really need a filler for the M1 w/ H4895 for cast?

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Where IA,NE,&SD meet
    Posts
    10

    Do you really need a filler for the M1 w/ H4895 for cast?

    Hello. Again I am a long time lurker and now new member. I have shot cast for about 18 years. Got away from it for a couple and now coming back.

    I am a Garand nut. Want to try cast in one of my Garands. I plan on using my 6 digit Springfield that is stock that I use for CMP matches. I used a decent out to 200 yard lighter recoiling load that guys at the CMP seem to enjoy 110 grain Sierra Varmiter with 47 grains of IMR3031. Had good luck with that load.

    Well that barrel is now free of copper and going to be used for cast. I am going to use the old stand by 311299 sized to .311. After seeing the many post here on the Garand I plan on using my 8 lbs. of H4895 start with 34.5 grains and go up to 36 grains to see what is the best. I know some use Dacron filler. Is that necessary? How about barrel tipping?

    Thank you in advance.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    18,150
    Is it necessary? That will depend on the type of shooting and what is allowed on the ranges you shoot at. If you are content with M2 Ball accuracy +/- then the filler isn't necessary. However if you want the best possible accuracy as in shooting "matches" then I think you'll find the filler will give better accuracy. With the filler I find in working up loads in 30-06 M1s starting at 28 gr with H4895 and working up 1 gr at a time that best accuracy comes just where functioning is 100% reliable.

    As to tipping it works after the round is chambered but with the M1 and 4895 w/o a filler I find just a slight shaking of the rifle settles the powder and gives better uniformity of internal ballistics and accuracy than does tipping. Some ranges do not allow tipping of the muzzle skyward. Also w/o the filler if the M1 is used in the semi-auto role then the position of the powder is hap hazard and usually just M2 Ball accuracy is attainable. With a filler the accuracy remains stable regards of how the rifle is used.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  3. #3
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Where IA,NE,&SD meet
    Posts
    10
    Excellent thank you.

    My range allows tipping. But, w/ “just a shake” that makes it a lot easier. I plan on doing CBA bench rest and CMP shoots. So, the filler or the shake work just fine because I am on the bench and have plenty of time. CMP shoots on the other hand I will have to use filler or deal w/ M2 ball accuracy.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    624
    M1fuzz, will you be shooting at the Hawkeye in Sioux City ? I've been there for a couple of matches, lots of fun. Welcome to the forum.

  5. #5
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Where IA,NE,&SD meet
    Posts
    10
    Yes I will. It is my “home” range.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    1,442
    A good 300 meter load is the Sierra 125 grain spitzer flat base with 36 to 40 grains IMR 4895. Do not exceed 40 grains. No special cases needed but I used a bunch of lake City 67 and got great accuracy and very little recoil. Load data was given to me by the NRA years back. This was in a 1903A3 Springfield. When I posted this load data a few members here chimed in and with slight variations was almost the same data. Haven't tried it in my Garand but I see no reason why it should not work. Frank

  7. #7
    Moderator Emeritus

    georgerkahn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    South of the (Canada) border
    Posts
    1,764
    M1fuzz -- Although I've read about barrel tipping -- a practice mandated in years back to British, to insure powder drop in front of primer -- I've never experimented with it.
    In my cast loading for my M1, I use same bullet, complemented with a slightly lighter load of same powder -- H4895 as you do. I have used a product called Puff-lon Lubricating Ballistic Filler with mixed success. ( http://www.pufflon.com/newfront.html ) The stuff works well in keeping powder where you want it -- adjacent to flash hole -- but, frankly, I find it a teeny-tad kind of a mess-maker. The "good" is it actually seems to keep my barrel cleaner and shinier than shooting same load without it. The "bad" (my ONLY "dis") is that after a range session, albeit very easily removed, there are teeny-tiny flecks of the stuff all over everything! HOWEVER -- for what it's worth, I both like and continue to use the stuff.
    In past charting with my Oehler 35P chronograph, there appears to be a noticeable increase in round consistency -- a reduction of ES -- in my M1 loads using this additive. Our hi-power season starts 10 June -- and, with a new LabRadar chrony -- I definitely will be charting both my cast reloads, as well as jacketed bullet rounds -- and may glean new data.
    geo

  8. #8
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Where IA,NE,&SD meet
    Posts
    10
    Ok. Thanks. Another question. What OAL are you guys using in your M1’s with 311299 bullets? Thank you in advance.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    dale2242's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    SW Oregon
    Posts
    1,681
    Larry Gibson is the filler expert here on CB.
    At his recommendation, I use 1 gr. of dacron filler in medium size bottle neck cases with cast with medium burn rate powder.
    32 gr of 4895 or 4064 in my M1 will shoot better than my ball equivalent jacketed loads.
    I just shot a ragged hole group with my granddaughters 7MM-08 at 50 yds with H4198, a Saeco 145 gr cast bullet, and 1 gr. of dacron.
    Adding filler slows the loading process some but will pay off in accuracy....dale
    Last edited by dale2242; 06-08-2020 at 02:07 PM.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    over the hill, out in the woods and far away
    Posts
    8,171
    +1 on what Larry said.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  11. #11
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    SE Iowa
    Posts
    41
    What happens to the dacron filler? Does it melt and get pushed out? Melt and build up? Wind up as a tuft of polyfill down range? Pros Cons of dacron vs. 1/4 sheet TP?

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    18,150
    With "normal cast bullet loads of medium pressure levels the dacron does not burn but is shredded. sometimes you can see it drift down in front of the muzzle of if the wind is coming toward you it will drift back over you and the bench. On HV/higher psi loads the dacron may be shredded just to much as I've never found any residue left of it. Never found any melted on base of recovered bullets either.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Central Minnesota (Brainerd Lakes area)
    Posts
    396
    Larry Gibson, if you don't mind one more question...
    At what case fill percentage do you reckon a filler begins making a difference?
    I imagine a case at 98% full will see no benefit.
    I'm interested to know where you draw the line.
    Thank you.

    Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    18,150
    80%...…..or less. That is with powders and bullets that can benefit from a filler. Not all powders, even with load density below 80% need or really benefit from a filler. The bullet weight/mass also plays into the equation. Best to read my post in the "sticky" for a full and better understanding; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...use-of-fillers
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Central Minnesota (Brainerd Lakes area)
    Posts
    396
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    80%...…..or less. That is with powders and bullets that can benefit from a filler. Not all powders, even with load density below 80% need or really benefit from a filler. The bullet weight/mass also plays into the equation. Best to read my post in the "sticky" for a full and better understanding; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...use-of-fillers
    Tyvm

    Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    8,366
    Sometimes dacron will melt into a small bead. It takes specific conditions for that to happen. If I remember correctly, it's the same conditions that will set cotton wool filler alight. I just don't remember what those conditions are.

    I have difficulty with the notion that dacron can somehow cause chamber ringing or do any damage. I have been able to produce a low pressure load that had high pressure in the neck of the case. I know about this because the particular chamber has rust pits in the neck area and this load expanded the necks into those pits. A normal full power load does not do that. I know the pressure is low because firstly there just wasn't enough powder to create high pressure plus the primer showed very little sign of pressure as in the primer indent hardly filled out. No dacron was involved, it was wheat bran and one of the fastest burning powders. Do not use a filler when using small charges of fast powder. Dacron is not used as a filler, it is used to position the powder and should not be tamped down over the powder to form a wad. Nor should any filler or positioner.

    I'm wondering whether the tests that showed dacron as the chamber ringing culprit used the dacron as a tamped down wad over the powder. Perhaps that could result in the dacron melting into a wad which might cause issues?
    Last edited by 303Guy; 06-09-2020 at 07:02 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check