Forming 577 Snider

[yulzari]

Fantastic looking collection. I'd really like a 61 or 63 Springfield to add to the collection one day. I'm always on the look out for the right one. Strange on the twist rate. You have to wonder how that happened? Experiment maybe? Someone got bored?

Well, here is the Snider surprise. It is my understanding that there aren't many of these in the world, but that doesn't matter. It's going to get shot and hunted with either way. Hopefully I'll have it and 50 new pieces of brass in my hands shortly.
Attachment 264294

Snider Cavalry Carbine. I have had three through my hands in the past. Yours appears to be Portuguese. Not the most common Snider version but they regularly appear on the market. Handy in close country.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Snider Cavalry Carbine. I have had three through my hands in the past. Yours appears to be Portuguese. Not the most common Snider version but they regularly appear on the market. Handy in close country.

Close country is what it will live in, although I can't guarantee that it won't smack a gong at 2 or 300 yards here and there. I imagine the faster twist and 2 extra grooves makes these little guys shoot great.

Ah hah! Portuguese Cavalry Carbine. Very cool! BSA I assume? The total contract was only about 1200 I think so there just aren't many out there. We'll need full range report for this one also.

I'm assuming BSA, as I believe that is who fulfilled the contract. Full range report will be coming in ASAP. When I get my new 50 pieces I will fire-form them with the x-ring services bullet.

[KCSO]

Under 4 inch groups at 100 paces with the right load good on deer to over 100 if you can read the drop.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Under 4 inch groups at 100 paces with the right load good on deer to over 100 if you can read the drop.

Very true. I'd like to hunt with my long rifle this year but it's hard dragging a gun that long thru the thick brush of the East, TX piney woods. It's fine once you're 40' up the tree but getting there is the hard part.

[tmanbuckhunter]

While it's on my mind I want to ask. Anyone think I'll have trouble with that carbine and the .600 X-Ring bullet? It is my understanding that these carbines don't have the the same style of bore where it starts out large and gets smaller, and that it's consistent thru out. They aren't a true .575 are they? If so I may have a custom mold made based on the Lee REAL bullet. I'll definitely try the X-ring bullet first.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Good question. Since they are purpose built, hard to say. If so inclined, you could slug each end and compare. It takes a little doing but it's doable. Also, likely someone over on Brit militaria would know. To slug the muzzle end add some sizing lube to the bore and shorten, by pounding with a hammer, a conical so it is a few thous larger than estimated groove diameter. Drive it into the muzzle a couple inches then retrieve with a screw type ball puller. To slug the breech end insert a brass rod into chamber that is close to diameter of cartridge case or a steel rod that will fit into a cartridge case. This "solid cartridge case" should be about chamber length- so about 1.9" should work well. Close the breech. Push an un-expanded conical that is +/- bore diameter down to the end of the solid cartridge case in the chamber. Use a rod like a thick brass rod or even steel rod with a large flat brass jag on end to pound thus expand the conical slug sitting in the throat area. That should give an impression of throat and first part of bore and would indicate the bore and groove diameter at the breech end. Measure and compare muzzle end to breech end. That would tell story if it had progressive depth grooves or not. If the slug impression in the breech end is good enough it would indicate which size conical would likely work best- usually groove diameter up to maybe .001-.002" larger than groove diameter. Of course those who shoot the Cavalry Carbine would have direct experience input for what works best for them.

Well I asked em, and we'll see what they say. I am eager to slug the bore of this rifle. If it starts out at .600, or even .595, and tapers down to .577, I'm ok with shoving a .600 diameter bullet thru it. If it's a consistent .580, .585, or .590 all the way down it though, we'll have to get a new bullet. I'm not comfortable with that much of a size difference.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Yep, trying an inexpensive mold especially if you already have it is one thing. Investing in a custom or much more expensive mold that may not work or proves not to work is something else and gets old in a hurry- been there done that.

Most of the time I can feel if the bore of a rifle has progressive type rifling. It needs to be clean and requires a very tight, well lubed patch on a correct sized jag. I put the rifle in a gun vise. Lube a patch or doubled patch that will result in a very tight fit. I set the patch against the muzzle with the jag placed against it. I may have to tap the back of the cleaning rod with my palm to start the patch down the bore. I run the patch all the way to the breech end (works for both muzzleloaders and breech loaders where the action blocks rear entry... like the Snider. If the patch is tight enough, I can definitely feel the progressive depth grooves as the patch is tighter at the muzzle than at the breech end. Obviously, this tight patch system is qualitative and not quantitative- that would require slugging both ends.

That's a good idea, and I like it. A nice way to figure out what's going on in a pitch to satisfy a curiosity.

Ended up ordering some cerrosafe. I think I had 2lbs, but like a lot of stuff, it got lost in all the moving I've done in the last 7 years. I'll make a cast of the first inch of the rifling, the throat and the chamber. Should give me an idea. One person on British Militaria said his casted at .598 in the groove at the throat, but couldnt cram the x-ring 60-530XR in there. I'm not opposed to shoving that bad boy down in the case like a torpedo to make it work. lol

If for some reason the X-ring bullet won't work, I'm going to have Tom make me a bullet that will go all the way in the case and eliminate the need for a filler, similar to how Iraqvet8888 (Eric) on youtube did with his.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Alright, I just couldn't help myself tonight. I got tired of looking at what I thought was crusted over black powder fouling in my bore that I just couldn't get out, and risked it all. I soaked the bore in ballistol, took my bronze brush, and attacked it with several passes, probably 50-75 altogether with short and long strokes of the brush. It's definitely pitting, as most of it didn't go anywhere, and some new pitting appeared. It was as I thought, most likely caked on BP fouling in some places from petroleum cleaners, mixed with rust. I still can't get the patches to come out snow white, but I do have to understand that this is an iron bore rifle, and iron doesn't shine up like steel in the first place and it's just a light orange instead of a dark orange.

The good news, the bore is smooth now. I can push a patch thru it with no roughness felt, even when I drag it back thru. The lands and grooves are now very defined for being a shallow 3 groove Enfield bore. Despite the pitting, it's still in relatively good shape and I guess I can't cry about pitting in a rifle this old anyways. The bore now has a nice bright shine to it for being iron, no doubt though that the brush probably did that. I probably removed .0005 worth of material I'm sure, but I feel it was worth it in this case. I still don't fault the GB seller. None of this crud appeared until I really started to clean it. Fresh out of the box, it was smooth and shiny or so it appeared to be. I'm sure it was grease that was dried up and smoothed over producing the illusion of a perfect bore. I can't complain. For a Snider, the dang thing shoots very well, and for sure minute of whitetail or hog out to 100 yards. Maybe even 200? I will be testing that.

I'm hoping giving it a deeper cleaning will tighten the groups up just a hair more. A BPCR rifle needing some fouling to group is one thing, but being caked in dirt is another. Caked dirt doesn't produce accuracy.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Mk3 carbine is here, and it's a cool little gun. Breech block is a bit stiff to open and disassembly showed no issues. Breech face is smooth and clean, and the firing pin spring is stiff. I just don't think it's been shot much. I used my expander die to open up the neck of a freshly formed 24ga case and managed to get the x-ring bullet seated. I don't think it's going to work, but we will see. I made a chamber casting and I'm waiting an hour and a half or so to take my measurements.

Screw it, measured the casting anyways. Groove at the throat is .597, with a free bore/throat diameter of roughly .635. I don't see any reason why the X-ring 60-530XR won't work? Maybe I need to get the cases fire-formed first and then try. I'll order some round balls.


EDITx V. I lied edition: I took a fresh case and carefully expanded the neck with my flaring die until I could just start a fresh bullet, and slowly seated the bullet just past the first lube groove, and then took my seated die and closed the flare with the crimp ring, and the case slides in and out just fine with no issues, and the breech block closes easy. I think it's worth trying?


EDIT AGAIN: Ok, so, I charged 50 cases with 60gr 2F, 3.1cc of C.O.W. with a .125 nitro card on the c.o.w. and then two .025 card wads on that to get the height I needed. I seated the bullets and they work fine, BUT.... there is a CRAP TON of neck tension. I hope it's not too much, but I guess we'll find out. As long as I close the flare with the crimp shoulder they chamber fine. The bullets don't want to seat straight because of all the neck tension, so if that happens, a quick trip into the sizer just until tension is felt on the press handle is enough, and then they drop right into the chamber. I'm not expecting much, but we'll see. I made two mistakes back to back at the bench and realized I was exhausted, so I stopped for the night.

[toot]

.577 snider's rely rock!!

[tmanbuckhunter]

They really do rock.

So, managed to get 50 loaded. Tons of neck tension, a lot of the bullets wouldn't seat straight because of that. I plunk tested all of them, the ones that wouldn't chamber because of a crooked bullet got a trip up into the sizing die. Just far enough to pull things straight enough to chamber fine. I'm not expecting to be amazed on the first trip trying to get this brass fire-formed.

What happened to fouronesix? I noticed all of his posts are gone and he's kinda MIA? I really appreciated all the information he provided. He was a lot of help.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Shot all 50 today... not good. Minor excessive headspace, had some primers try to back out and a few fall out but the pockets are still tight. Accuracy was dismal... I could hit the target at 50 yards and that's about it. I did some investigating and found the crown was boogered up, so when I got home I re-cut the crown and all is well in that arena. I think I can chalk the accuracy up to one, a damaged crown which probably happened during shipping, and two, there was A LOT of neck tension on those bullets. It's been my experience with BPCR that less is more when it comes to neck tension. With the fired cases, I can almost seat a bullet by hand, which is preferable. I will continue to try and develop a load with the X-Ring bullet. If that doesn't work, I will try a .600 round ball, and maybe have a custom mold produced based on the old TC maxi-ball. It has been my experience in most front stuffers that the maxi-ball seems to shoot well regardless of load, bore condition, or twist rate and number of grooves.

I think now that the brass is fire-formed the headspace/primer issue should go away.

[tmanbuckhunter]

So, update. I did some load development. Rifle still seems to have a headspace issue, although I don't think it's entirely headspace. Primers are still falling out of their pockets, but the pockets are still tight. I took a measurement again and with a cartridge in the chamber, the breech block has .008 worth of play in the front and rear. I ended up cutting a piece of brass foil about .004 thick to epoxy into the rear of the shoe and that seemed to tighten things up. Upon inspection of the primers that fell out, I noticed that the firing pin is smashing them all the way into the flash hole. Couple this with the relatively low operating pressures of black powder, the thin rim of the shotgun brass, and the already large firing pin hole, I think the primers are just flowing themselves out of the pocket. It doesn't help that they are federal large pistol magnum, and very soft. I wonder if a CCI Large Rifle primer would take care of some of the issue, on top with the tightened up breech block in the shoe? Time will tell.

Accuracy with the X-ring bullet after crown repair and less neck tension is fairly decent. All groups averaged about 4" at 50 yards. The two targets shown are 63 and 66gr. The 66gr loading appears to be bigger than the 63 gr, but both measure roughly 4" at the widest point. I think if I were to stack another 5 shots into each group, both group sizes would still look the same. Good enough to hunt with, but I think I may try a .600 round ball anyways just to see what happens. I'm planning on shooting the 66gr load for all purposes. 63gr of 2F still went "boof" with a thick cloud of smoke, where as the 66gr load went "CRACK" with a nice hazy smoke cloud that disappeared quickly and wasn't too thick.
66gr

63gr

Shim in the shoe. All the excess epoxy was cleaned off once it dried.

Teacup howitzer

[tmanbuckhunter]

Figured I'd give you guys an update. The old teacup howitzer has been making it out to the woods, and she's shooting a full bore 70gr. load now.

[DonHowe]

Unless the Magteca brass has changed it will need to be annealed prior to forming or the cases will split.
Lee dies form a bottleneck case but in my Canadian 2 band MkIII fired cases are a straight taper. A friend made a neck size die for me which sizes the neck to an ID of .590" for the .600" round ball.

[Outpost75]

My buddy in Italy uses an Army & Navy Cooperative Society Sporting Carbine in .577 firing .600" pure lead round balls in 24-gage paper shotshell cases cut to 50 mm, loaded with 80-grains of Fg black, a 10cm felt over powder wad compressing the powder charge, then a pea-sized dab of 50-50 olive oil and beeswax over the wad, and another smoothed over the ball, no crimp needed. Kills boar.

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[DonHowe]

A feller tinkerin with a Snider ought to head over to British Militaria Forums and check out all the info there.

[tmanbuckhunter]

My buddy in Italy uses an Army & Navy Cooperative Society Sporting Carbine in .577 firing .600" pure lead round balls in 24-gage paper shotshell cases cut to 50 mm, loaded with 80-grains of Fg black, a 10cm felt over powder wad compressing the powder charge, then a pea-sized dab of 50-50 olive oil and beeswax over the wad, and another smoothed over the ball, no crimp needed. Kills boar.

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I remember seeing you post this I believe either here, or the british militaria forum before. A commercial Snider is on my list of MUST HAVES!! I would build a new one but I really don't want to deal with building a destructive device.