.357 Herret vs .357 Maximum?

[megasupermagnum]

Follow David White and Mike Bellm for some .357max load data. Also, MGM bbl's list loads. I chrono'd 158 Hornady bullets from my Encore/MGM and with 1680 powder I was getting just over 2400fps. Some are loading and getting close to 2600fps. Problem is, the XTP comes apart at those velocities. Using the Hornady Sil 160g the bullets will hold together. No pressure signs with this load. There is a real problem getting safe effective loads with the Max due to it being developed for revolvers and discontinued by Ruger before it developed a following in Contenders, Encores, Low Walls, etc. Used in any of these guns it can be loaded to safe pressures and easily exceed the Herrett or the .35 Rem.

I'm assuming that is from a long rifle barrel. You won't get those numbers from a 14". In a rifle, 357 magnum gets up around 2000-2100 fps. Buffalo bore's own 158 grain load is shown at 2150 fps. So at 2400 fps you have a good boost, and likely already hot. At 2600 fps you are certainly WAY over the SAMMI pressure limit. I'm not against going over the limit at all, but it isn't fair to compare a hot rod 357 maximum to a watered down 35 remington. The 35 remington has way more case capacity, and at equal pressure levels will always out run the maximum.

After looking it up, no 357 maximum will not out perform 35 herrett either, which appears to essentially be a hot loaded 35 Remington with a rim.

[NSB]

And it's WAY easier sizing the brass and reloading.

[megasupermagnum]

Put both cartridges in 23" RIFLE barrels, and the 357 Herrett will NEVER catch up with the 357 Maximum, regardless of bullet weight tested!

The only way to boost 357 Herrett velocities safely, is to use 375 Winchester brass, which has a much higher working pressure range than what 30-30 Winchester brass does. We, meaning myself, Steve Herrett and Bob Milek had done considerable work with both the 30 Herrett and 357 Herrett using 375 Winchester brass in T/C's 15" barrels from their custom shop Fox Ridge Outfitters. The much thicker 375 Winchester brass was a lot harder to form, fire-form and work with, but the gains possible with the increased velocity definitely made it worthwhile!

And what pressures were you loading to?

At 40,000 psi, the SAMMI spec for 357 maximum, the data I have shows 1500-1550 fps with a 180 grain in a 14" contender. I also have Hornady data, which is generally weaker than other sournces, that show a 357 Herrett can get 1900+ fps from a 12" contender.

There is no logical reason the maximum will ever surpass 357 Herrett or 35 remington unless you are in no mans land. The longer the barrel, the more disadvantaged the maximum will be to the other two.

[M-Tecs]

Speaking from the cartridge designers point of view, Elgin Gates, I have 2 of his personal reamers, as well as his personal load data, and the transducers on my test barrels show exactly what Mr. Gates loads were doing in terms of both pressure and velocity, and "my loads" are a direct copy of his.

No dog in this fight just curious. The SAAMI max for 30/30 is 42,000 PSI so 357 Herrett brass should take that. The SAAMI max for the 357 Maximum is 40,000 PSI. What pressures are you actually running to get that type of performance?

[M-Tecs]

The pressures that I run in "my" guns and test barrel are of no consequence, because as we all know, ALL guns and ALL chambers are different and ALL guns handle loads differently.

All of my 357 Maximum barrels have a 1-17" twist rate and all barrels have 3- groove polygonal rifling. Twist rate, number of grooves, freebore, and bore/groove diameters all play a role in both velocities and pressures of each individual cartridge.

SAAMI spec says 40,000 psi for the 357 Maximum, so no one should be exceeding that limit!

What I do with my guns is on me and me alone!

Than the same can be said for the 357 Herrett and the 35 Rem. If you do they both will surpass the 357 Maximum performance. Same for comparing each where 99.999% of the the shooters/reloaders will run them at and that is with the SAAMI specs.

Put both cartridges in 23" RIFLE barrels, and the 357 Herrett will NEVER catch up with the 357 Maximum, regardless of bullet weight tested!

Based on your data I was thinking about chambering a rifle barrel for the 357 Maximum but since I don't have the secret decoder ring to get the super secret load data not so much.

[M-Tecs]

Built my first wildcat in 1974. Built many for myself and others since and I have played the over pressure game a lot for long range competition before some of the newer component were available. Mostly with the then new 80 grain Sierra 80 bullet in the V-8 5.56 load. Brass only lasted for one firing but for service rifle comp that was the only legal AR cartridge and brass and rifles were issued.

In all those years never made the claim that a smaller highly over pressured cartridge could never be caught by a larger volume case simply because it's not true all thing being equal.

[megasupermagnum]

No decoder ring necessary!

You just have to know your way around the loading bench, know your gun and know how to read pressure signs.

Right, and both 35 Remington and 357 Herrett have significantly more case capacity. The difference is far larger than the difference between 357 magnum and 357 maximum. 357 maximum has 26% more capacity than 357 magnum. 35 Remington has 50% more capacity than 357 maximum.

Nothing except extreme pressures can overcome that kind of discrepancy. Since we know 444 marlin is safe in the contender, and 35 rem/357 herrett has an even smaller case head, we know those cartridges can safely run to the same 42,000 psi, and will blow 357 maximum out of the water.

[megasupermagnum]

What I do with my guns is on me and me alone!

This is a good thing, but you have to be fair when comparing cartridges. I hot load the 327 federal, I'm sure I've fired loads that could be pushing 50k-60k psi. I've got one load that actually exceeds some 357 magnum factory ammo. Does that make the 327 federal stronger? No, I simply loaded them that way, in my guns. Doing the same to 357 magnum, I can leave the 327 in the dust.

[M-Tecs]

I've never made the claim either, but I have proven it literally hundreds of times!

Your words not mine.

Put both cartridges in 23" RIFLE barrels, and the 357 Herrett will NEVER catch up with the 357 Maximum, regardless of bullet weight tested!

The V-8 loads ran around 77,000 to 78,000 PSI to keep the bullet supersonic at a 1,000 yards. Cost was single loading only on virgin LC primed brass and bolt lugs tended crack.

Again what pressures are you running to get that level of performance?

[megasupermagnum]

I never said 357 maximum couldn't hunt. All I said is that it is not a world different from 357 magnum. In a rifle, the maximum makes sense, especially for areas that only allow straight wall cartridges. In a revolver, I was not impressed. In a 14" contender, 35 Remington or 357 herrett offer more. In a 10" contender, I could see the case made for less recoil/muzzle blast of the maximum. If all I was looking for was a 50-75 yard handgun, I'd opt for the plain jane 357 magnum myself, which is far more impressive than many give it credit for.

[M-Tecs]

I guess I thought the 357 Herrett vs. 357 Maximum was a fair comparison test, but I guess it really isn't, so that's my mistake!

I have never pushed the 357 Maximum to the 60,000 psi level, but depending on how the chamber is throated, 50,000+ psi is the norm and after just checking data, one of my guns is 55,000 psi and the other is 56,000 psi and these are the 2 guns that I can easily stretch to 300 yards, as I have found the harder I push them, the more accurate they become.

That a very fair comparison all things being equal. Running one at 40% over SAAMI not so much.

[megasupermagnum]

As long as the loads I shoot are accurate, and the bullet perform to my satisfaction, as long as the pressures are SAFE IN MY GUNS, it makes no difference what the pressures are!

I know what you are saying, and I feel like you know where I'm coming from. I also notice you don't have a picture of a contender, and I have to wonder if your own loads would be at risk of stretching the frame of a contender. Being a relatively small case head, I would think you could run some decent pressures in a contender, but I do not know where that limit is.

[M-Tecs]

To you it doesn't but when you are recommending one over the other you should be forthcoming about small things like running it 40% over SAAMI to get that level of performance.

[garandsrus]

I would think the loads mentioned would stretch a Contender frame.

[rking22]

The nice thing about the max is the head size relative to bolt thrust on the Contender. The Contender is happy with 223 Remington pressures and the max has the same effective head size. That was the limiting factor to the Herrera in Contenders, bigger head yielding more thrust to spring the frame. The 357 max can run significantly more pressure than either the Herter or 35 Remington. Thing is, I like heavy bullets and have no interest in shooting 140 grain in my 35s so I am perfectly happy with 40,000 CUP spec for the 35 Rem. I have both Herrets because I found the 357 Herrett before the 35 Rem, and I enjoy the novelty. And performance is fully adequate.
Actually, rereading the op, I would thing the 357max would be better for him. Fact is, I would say 357mag would yield fully functional performance per his stated goals. A 357mag in a 10 inch Contender is a different critter than from a 4 inch revolver! Unless he just likes novelty, then the Herrett still kills deer.

[megasupermagnum]

Well after doing some math on bolt thrust, it looks like 357 maximum should be ok in the contender to a whopping 65,000 psi. The 35 Remington on the other hand provides nearly the same calculated bolt thrust at 45,000 psi. So I suppose a case could be made for the 357 maximum if you are willing to load way up there. I'd prefer to simply choose another cartridge at that point. Something like 309 JDJ if I wanted the range, or 444 marlin if I wanted a more effective hunting round.

[M-Tecs]

I know what you are saying, and I feel like you know where I'm coming from. I also notice you don't have a picture of a contender, and I have to wonder if your own loads would be at risk of stretching the frame of a contender. Being a relatively small case head, I would think you could run some decent pressures in a contender, but I do not know where that limit is.

Bolt thrust is the critical number for Contender frame stretch. It's easy to calculate. Not sure how the 357 Max inside area of the case head compares to something like the .204 Ruger which doesn't have any issues in the Contender. Higher end 375 Win loads at 52,000 CUP will stretch a Contender.

https://riflebarrels.com/a-look-at-bolt-lug-strength/

Bolt Thrust
Bolt thrust is easy to calculate. Only two inputs are required. They are peak chamber pressure in PSI and as mentioned, the inside area of the case head that the gas pressure can work on. The formula then is:

THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:

AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2

HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.

[megasupermagnum]

Bolt thrust is the critical number for Contender frame stretch. It's easy to calculate. Not sure how the 357 Max inside area of the case head compares to something like the .204 Ruger which doesn't have any issues in the Contender. Higher end 375 Win loads at 52,000 CUP will stretch a Contender.

https://riflebarrels.com/a-look-at-bolt-lug-strength/

Bolt Thrust
Bolt thrust is easy to calculate. Only two inputs are required. They are peak chamber pressure in PSI and as mentioned, the inside area of the case head that the gas pressure can work on. The formula then is:

THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:

AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2

HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.

All I did was assume both cases had the same thickness (which they likely do not, but close enough), and compared 444 marlin and 375 Winchester, which are considered the limit of the contender. rking22 brings up a good point. The case head for the 357 maximum is nearly identical to the 223 Remington, which is a standard contender chambering. That runs up to 55,000 psi, so I suppose we can assume a 357 maximum should be safe at that point.

[PNW_Steve]

I have not seen the Herrett before. I googled it and did a quick look. I am curious if you have considered the .350 Legend (.358) ?

[rking22]

350 “legend” is just a rimless 357 max ish with oddball head size. Was designed to fit into an AR magazine, like a lot of new rounds. I suspect the factory pressure is a bit high for a Contender but not sure. There was an issue with factory loads breaking carriers or something in ARs, too long a case or too much crimp. Don’t remember. It headspaces on the case mouth, like 9mm.