44 Special +P data and report

[curioushooter]

I've been on a consuming 44 Special +P binge and have done a lot of testing in a short period of time. Some surprises and some things what I expected. All the data I am working with comes from Handloader 236 and 312 articles by Brian Pearce which contain pressure data. He refers to standard loads as level I and 22K PSI loads or less as level II and 25K PSI or less as level III. S&W 24/624 (post-WWII N-frames) and Ruger Blackhawks are both level III capable revolvers, and probably the ones that most people shooting heavy 44 special loads will be using (I would not recommend these loads in any five-chambered revolvers (including the GP100) or Colts or Colt clones). I think it is easier to just call the loads 44 SPL, 44 SPL+P, and 44 SPL+P+.

One of the surprises was that I don't like 2400, which is the "go-to classic powder" for +P and +P+ loads. I don't know if it is the batch (Nov 2009 produced Lot X) I am using or something else I don't understand, but I have a hard time believing that THIS was the powder that started the whole magnum craze and that such knowledgeable re-loaders like it. It is horribly sooty and causes at least a little leading in basically every load I try. It causes leading that the exact same batch of bullets does not cause with different powders, even when the pressures are running about the same, and it never seems to burn completely unless driven very hard. My best time with 2400 has been in small capacity rifle cartridges--32-20 in particular--and it has proven useful to me in 30-30 for reduced loads, 357 Herrett for reduced loads, and it is pretty useful in 357 magnum for both rifle and revolver. But in the 624 it just looks like after one shot that I've been shooting all day. It stains up my pants too since I am doing a lot of sitting long range shooting. I am getting the expected velocities, so it isn't bad primers or something (CCI 300 Standard Large Pistol purchased during the scare back in '08). Accuracy no better than anything else...in some cases worse. I must say I am just surprised.

Another surprise was Blue Dot. Basically it does nearly what 2400 can do velocity wise, with less powder, leading, fouling, soot, blast, noise, no pants staining, recoil, flash...etc. For the ~25 FPS difference in respective max loads the choice is obvious to me. With the MP 429244 HP (~240 grain) 12.5 grains of BD returns a consistent 1200-1225 FPS from my 6.5" S&W 624. 16.7 grains of 2400 does 1225-1250 FPS. These are both +P+ loads (to 25k PSI) based on the solid bullet, so I expect that at 15 grains less bullet weight in the hollowpoint that these are running a bit less than 25k PSI. In either case 1200 FPS is pretty solid velocity and about as far as I care to take it velocity wise. Accuracy wise the Blue Dot is about equal at short range but superior once the distance gets greater mainly because it has a smaller deviation...about 10 FPS. Once I have proven out this Blue Dot load (I am toying with charge weights between 12-12.5 to see if I can find a optimal one) I will report back on the gel-testing. Let's just say I expect outstanding results from that HP when cast from 20:1 and with 240 grains of weight behind it. Can't really think of a better whitetail load to ~100 yards.

One thing that I was expecting is excellent performance from Unique! And boy it does deliver! With pretty much every bullet I've tried it gets what I expect or better and it is clean and consistent (I am using recently manufactured Unique 2019). In fact, 8 grains with a certain batch of Arsenal 429421s delivered about a 5 FPS variation in velocity! From 7-8.5 grains Unique will push a bullet 200-255 grains 900-1100 FPS or so with good accuracy and no drama. Just a good working load and isn't too bad on the hand/wrist. Up to 8.5 grains of Unique is a +P load.

Another winner is PowerPistol. 8 grains of it will match the classic 7.5 grains Unique/429421 "Skeeter-Keith" load and do it at standard pressure so it will be safe in all good condition 44 specials. It doesn't fill but half the case however, so it is somewhat of a double charge hazard. This seems to have no effect on accuracy. Except for the freakish 8 grain load of Unique above, PowerPistol has proven to be equally accurate as Unique or any other powder.

Now in case you thought I was an Alliant partizan, Tightgroup is a fine powder for standard "target loads." Despite filling only about 1/3rd of the case (a major double charge or even triple charge hazard) it is accurate and consistent and very economical. I have the same bottle of of TG I bought 12 years ago and I still think I have about 50% of it because you use so little of it, despite having thrown so many 3-4 grains charges. My feeling on target loads is kind of meh, however. If I want to shoot mouse fart loads 38 SPL has 44 beat any day. As accurate and uses a lot less metal. The Skeeter +P level loads have some authority to them. I wouldn't hesitate to use them on deer (at near ranges) for example and certainly everything lighter.

As far as bullets go I have the following molds:

Arsenal's clone of 429421 custom ordered to throw .432 bullets. Weighs ~254 grains with COWWs+2% tin. Closer to 250-251 when cast of 20:1. Plain base.

(borrowed) Lyman 429215 two cavity in good shape. Gas check.

MP Mold's clone of 429244 hollopoint. Ordered to throw .434. Gas check. Casts ~240 grains in 20:1 with large HP, ~250 with penta, ~245 with small HP, and ~255 solid. This mold features a modern (Lyman devastator) type cavities. Not only do such conical designs work better with antimonial alloys, they work better with binary too. I was very happy that Miha went with these design rather than the old school design proper to the 429244.

MP Mold's clone of H&G 503 hollowpoint. Ordered to throw .432. Plain base. Casts ~250 grains with small HP pin in an alloy of 93-6-1 (pb-sn-sb). I've never bothered with the other pins in this one as I don't like them. Long, narrow, round bottomed hollowpoint cavities don't expand at low velocities and or at angles much off perpendicular (cavity implodes). I've also not bothered with the solids as the 429421 is so similar.

I have not done any HP testing in 44 yet. I am basing this off testing done in 357/28 SPL. So my hypotheses could be wrong, but probably not.

My sizer is .431 (my 624 has .432 throats) and all size properly, though the 429215 barely sizes at all. I have one Lubeamatic and it is filled with Carnuba blue.

The big surprise here is my decided preference for the Ray Thompson gas check designs over the Keith plain base. I wasn't expecting this. But it is true. In my case at least the gas checks shoot cleaner for sure and seem a bit more accurate and faster. I was also surprised that my least favorite is that 429421 as it was the only one designed for 44 special and not for 44 mag.

The 429215 in particular I like. It has proven to be quite accurate and pleasant to shoot vs the heavier designs. The friend I borrowed it from has proven it extensively on whitetails. At 1100 FPS he never failed to recover a bullet (complete pass through) and every deer succumbed within reasonable time/distance (none lost). Claims to have shot at least ten deer with it over the years, but lost track of particulars.

I was wondering if they are any other heavy 44 special followers out there (NOT INTERESTED IN REDUCED 44 MAGNUM LOADS--if you not using a 44 special case it is not a 44 special load) and what they have found.

[onelight]

I am in the beginnings of working with the 44 special I have 2 now but have not had any time to do much load development . I need to get me a chronograph that wil work at the indoor range I go to.
But I much appreciate the information you have posted and look forward to results form others here.

[Win94ae]

Power Pistol is my favorite powder for 45acp and 38 special, good to see it will also work for 44 special!
Thanks!

[winelover]

Been doing this reloading thing for near on 50 years. Unique and 2400 are my go to pistol/carbine powders. I'd be satisfied with just those two powders if choices had to be made. I purchase both by the 8 pound jug and have gone though many of them. I load for 9 mm, 38 and 357, 44 Spl and Mag, plus (Ruger Only) 45 LC.

My performance loads in magnum revolvers/carbines, use 2400, sometimes with magnum primers. Moderate loads, I use Unique. I prefer 2400 because unlike 296/H-110, it can be downloaded effectively and safely. Thus it is more versatile. Never ever bought more than one pound containers of 296/ H-110..............never resulted any miraculous groups out of my guns.

Bluedot, I use to consume it by the 8 pound jug. My Python loved it with maximum doses and 158 jacketed bullets. Until it eroded the forcing cone, resulting in a new barrel.

Charter Arms Bulldog is my only 44 Special chambering. I do not shoot a lot of +P loadings. Mostly because of recoil. It will turn the first joint of my trigger finger from a blister to a bloody, mess in less than 25 rounds. When I practice with it, I put a band-aid on that joint, for it's cushioning effect. It's my bow hunting carry piece. It's loaded with 250 or 265 grain cast stoked with 2400 powder. It will dispatch anything found on my acreage. I have Power Pistol, I purchased for 9 mm. Never got around to trying it in the Bulldog. Maybe I should. Didn't impress me nor my CZ Scorpion carbine with cast.

Winelover

[RJM52]

Have not done any .44 Special loading since the 1990s but for +P loads SR4756 was my go-to powder... Unfortunately it has been discontinued.

Was wondering if you have tried H110...

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/r...ley-revolvers/

..just a wonderful cartridge... If I wasn't a .41 Shooter it would be a .44 Special...

[Thumbcocker]

Thanks for doing the leg work for us. Really like 8 grains of power pistol and Keith boolits. May have to grab some blue dot.

[DougGuy]

You may benefit greatly from researching some H110 loads under your heavier boolits. I did basically the same thing you are doing, loading to tier 2 pressures for a medium framed Vaquero (23,000psi 45 ACP+P pressure ceiling) in 45 Schofield brass. I was initially going to trim to 44 special length and call it a 45 Ruger Special but hey we are only talking .060" of case length, and there are already dies and brass made for the Schofield, My reasoning was that Ruger gave us a danged fine Tier 2 platform, let's make some Tier 2 loads for it!

I tried a lot of different boolit weights, but got my best results out of 3 of the LBT wide flat nose designs in the 250gr weight and H110 for powder. You used Brian Pearce's data, I used QuickLoad. I was able to get the LBT 250gr OWC to 1200fps at just under 23,000psi in QuickLoad and this load was fun to shoot. Snappy but not sharp at all, nowhere near what a 30kpsi load would be in a full size Blackhawk. NO knuckle bashing at all, and at 1200fps this would be an excellent hunting load for deer, black bear, or hog in the Eastern US. I seriously doubt I would ever recover one from a whitetail.

[ranchman]

If you're most interested in heavy loaded 44special data, and can find some Vihtavuori powder, VvN110 is a superb powder that I feel best's the old 2400. It burns just a tad bit slower, but burns clean and burns extremely consistent. And VvN110 has no great velocity swings due to temperature fluctuations either. It's a very stable powder. Become my favorite for maximizing my specials in 41 AND 44.

There isn't much for load-data out there though, I did my work-up with it by the seat of the pants while looking for a substitute for 2400 during years none was available. Probably be wise to start someplace around 15.5gr or so & increase til you hit the accuracy node (+/-1200fps) in your gun, depending on the guns tolerances. You may go as high as 17.5gr to find it, but I wouldn't venture much beyond that. My max load through a few different Colt single actions has been 17.5 & will shoot someplace between 1190 & 1240 through 5.5" barrels. The only bullet I've ever used has been 429421 variants weighing 250-260grains. And for ignition, primers have typically been Winchester large pistol.

But do work up to 17.5, don't just jump in head first. It IS a 44special-brass load, but a full house mag-special level load at that, which I'm sure would fall someplace up in that 25,000 +P+ listing if the charts were ever to be revised. Strong Colts, else Rugers & FA guns on special Grizzly occasions only far as I'm concerned. But an outstanding load nonetheless if you really want one like that... it's the single-one "business" load that I carry in 44specials when I'm in bear country

[curioushooter]

Lots of great sharing here. I wanted to share some more info and ask a few questions.

1) I did a lot of work with 296 and 44 mag years ago. In fact, it was about all I shot. And it was work. It was not fun at all. Almost all of it done with a 265 grain RNFP lee custom mold that I paper jacketed. Full charges of 26 grains of 296 in my superblackhawk and marlin. Extremely punishing in the blackhawk, but I kept banging away like an idiot. Eventually I just swore it off and sold both guns, one to my friend and one to my father in law. So I have a bit of a prejudice against that powder. I like 2400 better for a number of reasons. While I freely admit that 296/110 will generate greater velocities, I already think that 2400 is too slow for the application. 296 in my experience likes to be run at high pressures with a heavy-for-caliber bullet in front of it.

2) Regarding the skeeter type loads. I cannot emphasize enough how excellent these are. The 7.5 Unique/429421 is excellent, but really any cast SWC from 215-250 grains or so pushed by 7-8.5 grains of Unique works really well. I almost think that I prefer the Lyman 429215 with 8.5 grains of Unique most of all. It pushes it to ~1125 FPS and is entirely pleasant to shoot. Most accurate combo I've found in a revolver. Given the pressures (I do not have quickload) I wonder how far these loads with unique can be pushed? Would 9 grains with the 429215 still be under 25 kPSI? Ever run stuff like that Doug? In any case these loads are great all purpose loads with cast boolits. They have enough power and diameter to be effective on deer and anything smaller. They are very shoot-able, almost like target loads in terms of long term comfort and not causing fatigue/flinch. They are not deafening. They are clean (at least with newer Alliant Unique, I understand old Hercules Unique was dirty). And for the most part they shoot near the same point as a more powerful "Ketih" load. This is somewhat ticklish though. I found that in my 6.5" 624 that that this was not quite true, especially as ranges extend to 50 yards or farther. But at under 25 they are close enough for anything but real target shooting. It may be that with a 4" or 5" revolver that it works better.


3) I will say load data is not abundant, but it seems to be of good quality. I really wish the Lyman Manual had some more, but I sort of look at powder company data as rubbishy and untrustworthy in terms of velocity. So really, it is not so bad. Handloaders have long praised Unique and it is excellent. I have found that PowerPistol and Blue Dot are certainly deserving of some attention. I am just surprised at how disappointing 2400 has been...though admittedly it gets the velocity and the accuracy is there too.

Regarding the classic Keith load, ranchman. I worked up to 17 grains of 2400 from 15 in .2 grain increments. I found that 16.5 worked the best with the 429421 an even at this charge it was well over 1200 FPS (for whatever reason this is the fastest revolver I've owned. It consistently bests the data by 25-50 FPS). I only used standard CCI 300 primers and in starline's 44 SPL brass heavily crimped in the groove. This load was good but I have my criticisms:

In my 624 at least it is somewhat punishing, especially with a non-rubber grip. This is a Pachmayr only load for me.

It is filthy sooty and stains pants if you do sitting holds.

And I am not huge fan of the 429421, or at least the one I have. The one Arsenal makes has an almost exaggeratedly large grease groove. It takes nearly and entire spin of my Lubeamatic's handle to fill it. I'd esptimate it uses about 6x the lube that the 429215 uses. When I shoot it it never fails to leave a little leading and an abundance of crayon like smear in the barrel and chambers which is carnuba blue. The more you shoot the worse this fouling gets. After about a dozen rounds it's pretty nasty and I think accuracy starts to fall apart, though this could be because my hand is getting worn out. One of the unprovable ideas I harbor is that the size of the grease groove is not as important as the grease groove being packed absolutely 100%. My gel testing has show very consistently that only about 10-20% of the grease leaves a large groove and the smaller ones lose perhaps 50%. In no case have I ever observed a depleted groove. I think my 429421's groove is so massive it never gets fully packed and therefore when it gets compressed grease is not getting pumped out onto the barrel to do work. This is why why I get leading (I think) and why there is gobs of carnuba blue everywhere. Keith's thinking on the matter doesn't seem quite right to me. He seemed to like lots of "grease" and disliked gas checks. Maybe the lubes were different (probably much softer) then and it took more to get the job done. But I've found that you don't need much lube at all and that the gas check is has been helpful.

When I shoot the 429215 I can put 48 down range and the barrel looks basically like it did after the first shot. I am think I might do well to buy a 429421 iron mold with the round grease groves (oh my....the sacrilege!) to see if it works any better. I like iron molds best of all. But I understand many of these cast undersized bullets. I'm really after something that will cast at least .431 with 20:1 or COWW+2%Sn.

The only bears where I live are little black bears that can be subdued with whisky bottles, rocks, big sticks. I am pretty confident that the skeeter loads would be more than enough if it came to this highly improbable (for me) situation.

[ranchman]

16gr 2400 shoots about 1150 in my Colts.. and when I seen those kinda numbers registering on my chrony, I left the 2400 development right there. Some have written 2400 powders have changed since Elmers time, others say not, some say the guns and the machining since then is what's changed more ... whatever it is, I have never gone right to 17.5 2400 like Elmer favoured simply because it seems 16 is doing the same for his published old velocities, today.

And call me delusional, but in my guns, I feel a softer 1240fps recoil using VvN110 than I do shooting 16gr 2400 with the same 429421 bullet. I have NO pressure tooling or equipment to prove it, but I'd venture to guess 17.5N110 & the keith bullet may very well be a touch lower pressure load than what the old standby 17.5 2400 is, today. I would sure like to see Pearce put some trials into ink with Vihtavuori N110 for the heavies in special brasses.. I doubt it would lower pressure's enough to categorize as a 22,000 load .. but I don't doubt for a second it would fall some degree lower than the full house 17.5/2400 Elmer load which sits @approx 25,000psi.

Accuracy is on par or better than the Unique's & Power Pistol loads shoot too.. it truly is a fantastic heavy load powder for 44 special.

[Thumbcocker]

Has anyone tried 4227 for loads in this range?

[curioushooter]

Ranchman:

I totally believe your perception and observation regarding 2400. I know Larry has studied it on his pressure equipment, but not to my knowledge in this situation--a lower pressure cartridge. All the tests I've seen have been in magnum category. Many people seem to agree Today's 2400 is faster than it was years ago. I also think the guns have something to do with it and maybe the brass.

I think in Keith's era the brass must have been thinner, while today I think 44 SPL brass is 44 Mag brass cut shorter and stamped differently. This reduces capacity somewhat, and that is the magic (I think) of 44 special. The reduced capacity is why it gets such impressive performance from such small charges of powder. In some cases to match the velocity with the same powder/bullet it takes ~20% charge weight in magnum.

Regarding VvN110--Hornady has extolled the powder in their load manual with the same praise you are giving it. It should be a touch slower than 2400 but a touch faster than H110/296. One of the things that is great about most Vitavouri powders is they are relatively bulky and single base, and these sort of powders always seem to be at an advantage in the consistency and cleanness department. 2400 has a pretty high nitroglycerine content from I've read. It's a pity it costs almost 2x what domestic powders cost. Don't know what's going on with Finland because right now the dollar is crushing the Euro, and Miha's molds are a bargain right now. The only powder I've ever used from those Finns is 3n38, which performs no better than Blue Dot in the load I used it in--9mm major loads.

I believe 4227 has been discontinued, thumbcocker. I haven't seen it on a shelf in years. IMO it is way too slow for the application. I think 2400 is too slow.

I think it would be great if there were a bulky powder between Unique and 2400. The only two I know of are Blue Dot and Herco. There is no (good) data that I am aware of for Herco in 44+P with these bullets. I found a little with Blue Dot. I have never had any Herco.

[Larry Gibson]

I have pressure tested the 44 SPL with numerous loads including Keith's load (16 gr 2400/429421) and Skeeter's 7.5 gr Unique with 5 different cast bullets [240 gr Laser Cast, RCBS 44-250-K, Lyman 429360, Lee TL430-240-SWC and a commercial cast 429421].

The Keith load ran 19,300 psi.

The Skeeter load ran 19,000 to 24,700 psi [Laser cast 19,000 psi, 44-250-K 23,000 psi, 429360 22,500 psi, TL430-240-SWC 24,700 psi, 429421 21,000 psi]

Seating depth was more a deciding factor of psi than was bullet weight.

I'm willing to conduct reasonable pressure testing of 44 SPL +P loads with components I have or you supply. Realize pressure testing properly is not a "load 'em up, run out and test 'em" preposition. It is a bit more involved. Thus I will entertain and consider any serious requests.

I have the following moulds;
429215
429360
429421
429640HP
44-250-K
429-200-RF
TL430-240-SWC

[curioushooter]

Did you test 17 grains 2400 with 429421? That is the "Keith load" that I've read about. Brian Pearce has 16 grains at 22kpsi, btw. Said it was a maximum level II load.

[Larry Gibson]

Might want to re-read Pierce's article (Handloader) as he does not state the 16 gr load 2400 under a 429421 or RCBS 44-250-K gives 22,000 psi. He just states the Level II 44 SPL loads "run up to 22,000 psi". Pierce lists numerous loads in his "Level II" load table. The table does not indicate the psi of any particular load. Many assume all the loads are at 22,000 psi but the range ran from 15 - 22,000 psi. Having pressure tested several 10 shot strings of 16 gr 2400 load under the 44-250-K and the 429421 none of which ran above 20,000 psi I'll stand by the 19,300 psi as a good "average".

Keith's original load was 17.5 gr 2400 in balloon head cases. He dropped that to 16 - 16.5 gr in solid head cases. I tested the 16 gr load in Starline cases having solid web construction. 16 gr of 2400 was 100% load density with both the 44-250-K and the 429421 cast bullets......and because that was the max load Pierce listed in his "Level II" table. That test was by request on another thread regards Pierces listed loads.

[Outpost75]

I am partial to 6 grains of Bullseye in the .44 Special and .44-40 and 7 grains in the .45 Colt and .44 Mag.

[GONRA]

GONRA suggests winelover try Blue Dot. Pretty sure you'll like it!

[curioushooter]

Might want to re-read Pierce's article (Handloader) as he does not state the 16 gr load 2400 under a 429421 or RCBS 44-250-K gives 22,000 psi. He just states the Level II 44 SPL loads "run up to 22,000 psi".

He has an asterix and it leads to a statement that it is "maximum" so I assume he means 22kPSI. And it certainly makes sense from looking at the other data, as the level III table starts at 16 grains and goes to 17.

This was from the Level II table from handloader 236.



I am myself using new starline cases.

[MT Gianni]

I have 3 429241 molds and have been through at least 3 others, all Lyman brand. None has taken more than a 1/5th or 1/6th turn to lube it. It sounds to me like a poorly designed lube groove or one for a special purpose.

[ranchman]

Each of the Keith books I have state, by Elmer himself, 18.5 2400 was his balloon head load, and 17.5 2400 what he backed down to when solid cases came out for the same performance...

The 16gr load is most certainly a more recent load and observation tied to current cases, guns and powder manufacture. 16/16.5 had never been a published Elmer Keith load. It's a good load for sure, but not a charge Elmer championed. 17.5 was his Historical load.
And furthermore, was the basis for my own trials with VvN110 in mimicking the old 2400 load to compare differences*

Taffin quotes a lab pressure test in Book of the 44 with a 17.5 pressure number, but I can't recall it off the top of my head. 16.0gr@ 20,000 in Larry's tests is actually a good bit less than I expected it to be. All the more intriguing to see what the Vihtavuori powder would measure.