Keep in mind that the 10 was abandoned because smaller stature men and female agents could NOT qualify with them. The 10 is an outstanding performance handgun but if the person tasked with shooting it cannot hitbanything with it it’s useless. I am huge 10mm fan and carry mine more than any other caliber I own.Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale
I love my G22's.
Even bought a Lonewolf 9mm conversion and 9mm mags so I can shoot two calibers with one gun. Mine is boringly reliable which is what I want in a SD gun. I shoot tighter groups with the Kimbers, but that level of precision is not needed for SD.
And I like the longer heavier trigger pull for SD.
Lloyd...that is a great price. Cannot go wrong.
Don Verna
Absolutely. I think that a lot of people fail to realize the actual reason that used .40 S&W pistols are so much cheaper right now. There's this idea that it's because "you can't even give them away", "nobody wants them", they're less desirable, they're inferior somehow. Less demand is part of it, but the abundant supply is the real reason. It's simple supply and demand; there's a glut on the market because so many police departments have switched back to 9mm recently. Because of that glut, used .40 cal pistols are a heck of a bargain right now. If I wasn't pinching pennies so tight I'd buy another for a spare. I wish I'd have bought a dozen used service revolvers back in the mid '90s when they were cheap.I love the fact that everyone is switching and nobody wants 40s. Ill take them cheap like this. Still have 3 of the 38 smith police trade ins that they about gave away.
My loving wife came home from a visit with family holding a box that said Glock, "if you don't want it, I'll take it." I told her to 'hand it over.' My brother bought his son in law a Glock 22C, nephew had a college buddy who had a G23 but wanted the G27. Wife says 'I pay you, you give the G23 to nephew, he gives me the G22C' and she in turn gave it to me. Friend was a deputy and was able to order the G27 for $300.
Down side, it is a G22C with compensation ports, bad choice for low light shooting scenarios. But still, it started a costly trend. When I went through a law enforcement distributor, I ordered her a G23 and one for me, with sequential serial numbers. She went over the top ecstatic. Down the road, I bought her a conversion barrel and lots of 9mm mags, and for my brother and me for the G22s and G23s. Kind of solved my compensation port issue.
I liked going to the range with 2 barrels, plenty of loaded mags for both, a good range day for basic drills. An avid reloader my wife and I always pick up brass, including 15K of 9mm. I was also picking up 357 Sig brass, so much so that I bought a conversion barrel and dies. A buddy who was a reserve deputy was carrying the Sig, always picked up his brass, and learned I was going to reload for it. He gave me all his brass which included 600 rounds of factory loads. I shot it over a chrono and worked up loads. The Lee 358-125 RF is the exact same profile as the factory round. Factory went 1350 fps while my loads ran 1325 so I stopped there.
Then Glock came out with the G42 380 so I bought 2. I requested sequential numbers but was let down. When the G43 came out I bought 2, and received sequential, Wife digs that. Best part was my birthday is a number that frequently comes up, like in the phone number I had, etc. She got that one, I got the one following. Again, these were purchased through a law enforcement supplier, and the price came out with taxes, registration, and shipping at retail.
Wife didn't have a G22 and a fundraiser was being held to support law enforcement who have been injured, and was engraved with the Dept. logo and the Union insignia. I'm retired and still a dues paying member as I still believe that union did plenty for the Officers regarding pay, benefits, legal representation, and safety equipment/workplace safety issues.
My EDC shifts between the G22 and the G43 and I don't feel out gunned with the 9mm. Yes, I carry extra mags for my carry guns. I have lots of other 'favorites' and for years carried a S&W M13 357 (yes, 3 speed loaders) or a 1911 45 (yes, 3 mags). I still do the same shooting drills we trained with when I was on our version of SWAT. A perishable skill, accurate shooting requires regular shooting, and I shoot, therefor I reload.
Common sense Gun Safety . . .
Is taught at the Range!
thank you. I really struggle without your approval. Thank you also for your service as the grammar police. Guess though when you have no valid argument a personal attack on someone's intelligence is about all you have. Tell you what we can do to make peace. We will just stick to what we know. You-grammar, me-guns
LLoyd, no one is questioning your knowledge of firearms, it is you assertion of opinions as if they were fact that is causing the friction.
It is acceptable to use the phrase, "You know as well as I do" to put forth a fact. Here's an example, "You know as well as I do that the earth orbits the sun". That is a scientific fact and a defensible statement.
It is not acceptable to use the phrase "You know as well as I do" to put forth an opinion as if it were a fact. Here's an example, "You know as well as I do that every retired lineman in Michigan voted for Hilary Clinton". Not only is that an obviously false assertion, the very premise is indefensible.
You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.
Ones perception becomes ones truth.
Last edited by 44MAG#1; 05-26-2020 at 05:50 PM.
That is a good price for a G22 but I still wouldn't want one even at that price. I was a range office for DOC for a few years and went to a advanced handgun instructor course where we fired 1500 to 2000 rounds in three days with the G22. It wore a hole in my middle finger where it rubs against the bottom of the trigger gaurd. There was another spot that got pretty tender as well. The main thing I have against Glocks is they don't point naturally to where I'm looking. I traded for a glock 21 and I liked it much better than the G22 but it still was high left when pointed in and takes a while to get used to. Although the 45 has more recoil than the 40, it didn't feel as sharp. and it didn't wear holes in my hand.
My favorite carry handgun is a Springfield xds in 45. It only holds 6 shots, 8 with extended mag, but I doubt I'll ever run into more than three or for bad guys at once. I have several 9s and 45s but no 40/10mms. I do have a RBH in 41 mag but it doesn't conceal well and with a 270gr hard core jacketed bullet at 1100fps it might over penetrate a bit. I make the bullets from 40 S&W cases if that counts.
Band aids prevent finger rub.
Actually band aids just slow the rubs some and the range officer doesn't wait for you to change them when they wear through. Smoothing the bottom of the trigger guard helps some but still doesn't stop it.
Because the glocks don't fit my hand well and they are hard to change and I can't change my hand to fit a glock, I found other guns that fit my hand.
I like Glocks and they fit me well, but I sure wouldn't put up with a pistol that not only didn't fit right, but caused physical injury. I believe the only pistol that I was injured from shooting was my 1911 in the Navy due to slide bite.
"Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River
you have to use what you like and are sure can have your own opinion but 1500-2000 rounds I 3 days made you finger bleed? Id bet 99 percent of the soldiers today don't shoot that many shots in a deployment. I know cops that probably haven't shot that many rounds in 10 years. I had a 396 smith that with full power Keith loads would make me bleed! But it was such a handy gun to carry in the hunting woods for a back up that I used it anyway. Ive been slide bit by 1911s. Never made me sell them all off. Ive shot buffalo with 500 linebaughs. Surely not what some here call a pleasant gun to plink with but it was a capable tool for the job. I kind of struggled at first with the pointing of glocks. Today if I grab a 1911 or about anything but a glock I have to mentality think when I shoot because I point a glock naturally. Came from YEARS of shooting and practice. Theres one thing that's very hard to argue against a glock. For the money your not going to find a more reliable gun. Nope there not pretty, not target grade accurate and not everyones favorite but pull that trigger and a bullet is going down the barrel. Its why its the most popular sidearm in the world today. I have nothing against an xd but they don't even make the top 10. But then that's only my opinion.
P&P If all we were allowed to post here are cold hard facts casting posts with the exception of pc would have dried up 20 years ago on here. One thing I can be absolutely sure of. Ask someone what is the best bullet or alloy or piece of reloading equipment and im going to get a lot more opinion then fact. Ask me those questions and my answers to me are fact. Answers ive gleamed from 40 years of experience. If you don't agree then prove me wrong. Until then I AM entitled to my facts. Been on this forum since about its inception. I think ive helped enough people that my opinions are respected and that people on here know that when I answer or give a suggestion it comes from real world experience. What I don't need is someone telling me how to spell or making up there own rules of decorum and posting on here. If I bother you use the ignore feature. If I break a rule, and I have in the past, the moderators are quick to straighten me out. YOU do not tell me what is expectable on here.
you have to use what you like and are sure can have your own opinion but 1500-2000 rounds I 3 days made you finger bleed? Id bet 99 percent of the soldiers today don't shoot that many shots in a deployment. I know cops that probably haven't shot that many rounds in 10 years. I had a 396 smith that with full power Keith loads would make me bleed! But it was such a handy gun to carry in the hunting woods for a back up that I used it anyway. Ive been slide bit by 1911s. Never made me sell them all off. Ive shot buffalo with 500 linebaughs. Surely not what some here call a pleasant gun to plink with but it was a capable tool for the job. I kind of struggled at first with the pointing of glocks. Today if I grab a 1911 or about anything but a glock I have to mentality think when I shoot because I point a glock naturally. Came from YEARS of shooting and practice. Theres one thing that's very hard to argue against a glock. For the money your not going to find a more reliable gun. Nope there not pretty, not target grade accurate and not everyones favorite but pull that trigger and a bullet is going down the barrel. Its why its the most popular sidearm in the world today. I have nothing against an xd but they don't even make the top 10. But then that's only my opinion.
P&P If all we were allowed to post here are cold hard facts casting posts with the exception of pc would have dried up 20 years ago on here. One thing I can be absolutely sure of. Ask someone what is the best bullet or alloy or piece of reloading equipment and im going to get a lot more opinion then fact. Ask me those questions and my answers to me are fact. Answers ive gleamed from 40 years of experience. If you don't agree then prove me wrong. Until then I AM entitled to my facts. Been on this forum since about its inception. I think ive helped enough people that my opinions are respected and that people on here know that when I answer or give a suggestion it comes from real world experience. What I don't need is someone telling me how to spell or making up there own rules of decorum and posting on here. If I bother you use the ignore feature. If I break a rule, and I have in the past, the moderators are quick to straighten me out. YOU do not tell me what is expectable on here. I could be wrong but I don't think they asked you to make up new rules. Now im done with this childishness.
I load my Glock 22 with 4.3 grains Bullseye/Lee 401-175-TC for a an easy to shoot 920 fps that hits plenty hard. Its like having a 15 shot .38-40 or .44 Special! Now, if I didn't reload I would have no use for the .40, most factory ammo is no fun whatsoever to shoot.
Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, 6.5 Creedmoor, .30 WCF, .308 WCF, .45-70.
Lloyd, Right here in post #32 is where we got crosswise......
You gave your opinion and added the phrase, "you know as well as I do" to portray that opinion as if is was an absolute fact.
If you care to go back and edit that to something like, "I believe that was one of the reasons the military, FBI, local and State Police have gone to the 9mm...."; we would have no quarrel.
Your opinion does not automatically become fact simply because you stick the phrase, "you know as well as I do..." in front of it.
Your age doesn't convert your opinions to fact.
Your experience doesn't convert your opinion to fact.
Your length of time on this forum doesn't convert your opinion to fact.
A man once said the earth was the center of the universe and the sun orbited around the earth. That man's status as the Pope didn't make that viewpoint fact. Nor did his status as Pope make that a correct statement.
So while I can respect your knowledge gained through age and experience, that doesn't mean I must accept your opinions as fact.
Since we are talking opinion here, Listed in order of importance, what would P&P and LS list as the most important of their "opinions" as the reasons for change to the 9MM. Lets say the top 4 reasons?
I am interested in knowing. I have my own opinions but will not divulge them here as I dont want to get into my feeblemindedness.
OK,
OPINIONS here:
Some in the U.S. military expressed desires to adopt the 9mm shortly after WWII but that movement gained little traction until the late 1970's. The S&W model 39 was in direct response to the U.S. Ordinance department's search for a 9mm pistol in the late 1940's and early 1950's.
The U.S. was the only NATO member that didn't standardize on the 9mm pistol cartridge and I believe that was a far bigger factor for the military's adoption of the 9mm than any need to accommodate female soldiers (who were not in combat roles in those days)
I believe, Logistics, cost and weight of ammunition played significant roles in the military's adoption of the 9mm.
I believe, As the existing stock of 1911 pistols became more and more worn and the rest of NATO was solidly behind the 9mm cartridge, it became more difficult for the individuals holding out for the 45 ACP to make their case.
The requirements set forth in the M9 program included many criteria but one of those requirements was the new pistol would be chambered in 9mm. So by the time the pistol trials were being held in the early 1980's, the replacement pistol was going to be a 9mm pistol.
More OPINIONS here:
American law enforcement seemed to be fairly content with the 38/357 revolvers (a .357" projectile that is very close to the .355" 9mm projectile) however times changed in the 1980's
Some departments had already made the switch (Illinois State Police is possibly one of the more well known) and LAPD authorized the Beretta model 92 in the late 1980's. But as the violence of the drug trade increased, there was a market opportunity for 9mm pistols and manufactures wanting to fill that market. So, in my opinion, the increase in drug trade, particularly the appearance of crack cocaine, fueled some of that demand.
After the 1986 Miami Shootout, the FBI went in search of another cartridge. By the early 1990's large portions of American LE had switched from revolvers to 9mm pistols and then the FBI was promoting the 40 S&W. So we saw another switch in American LE, this time from 9mm to 40 S&W. So opinion here, but that switch was driven at least in part by state and local agencies following the FBI's lead.
Now, there is a current trend back to 9mm for American law enforcement.
A few possible factors driving that trend are: Cost, 9mm generally costs less per round than 40 S&W. The differences may not be huge but when you look at large orders and big budgets, pennies count.
Pistol capacity - this isn't a big factor for me personally but I think police administrators and trainers look at pistol capacity.
Number of rounds for a given weight. Like the military, this is important. Cops carry a lot of gear and it only gets worse. Workman's comp claims for back injuries, the amount of ammo available for officers engaging a mass shooting suspect(s) and maybe even just convenience may play into these decisions.
I think the 40 S&W was perceived to be a huge improvement over the 9mm but over time it didn't prove to be as great of an improvement as originally believed. The advantages of the 9mm (reduced cost, reduced weight, increased capacity) began to chip away at the 40's marketing lead.
None of that is carved in stone. Just opinions.
Last edited by Petrol & Powder; 05-27-2020 at 06:29 PM.
Also opinion
Top 4
Cost
Cost
Cost
Less recoil
In comparable guns capacity is one round less in single stack guns and two rounds less in double stack guns. Not enough difference to make a difference IMO. I cannot imagine losing a fight because I had 16 rounds available but winning because I had 18.
And oddly once cost is factored in the 40 got labeled with the “uncontrollable” appellation from those who were looking for something besides the cost thing to justify their choice. I find that to be somewhat true with the lightweight subcompact pistols, less so with the compact and service size pistols. It must have been so uncontrollable that police used it for twenty years. Uncontrollable is hyping things a bit....but some tend toward that. My Shield is snappy but manageable with a regular practice regimen. This is less of a deal than some make it out to be.
Also find it interesting where it is said that only permanent cavity matters in wounding effect, and will note that means what the bullet directly strikes....and will also note the 40 averages notably larger in the frontal area of its expanded bullets than a 9 does.
Does this matter? I do not know for sure, but it is not a detriment and is quite possibly a benefit.
If 40 factory ammo was as cheap as nine a lot more people would find the recoil quite tolerable I suspect, and the arguments as to which was superior overall would have a lot of give and take.
I haven't really shot anything I didn't like.
I even like guns that shoot rubber bands.
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