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Thread: got another glock 22

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Well speed and weight do enter in to a caliber war , but size does matter no matter how she smiles and says it isn't so . But accuracy is still king of the war . I to feel that if such improvement has been made in 9 it is also available for 40 or 45 , pick what you want and learn to shoot it , internet b.s. aside it is practice and ability any of them and a whole lot of other calibers will work.

    Texas by God I to like those smiths and the safety , funny there are some have the magazine disconnect and others do not , some with safety some without and some with both . Actually been on gunbroker and ended up with a couple 40 and 45 , by the time they all come in and I do paperwork and then the background check it will be next month before I get to shoot any of them.

  2. #22
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    guess that to me is like saying a 2506 is as good on moose as a 35 whelen and so close to the Whelan that we don't need a 06. I guess ill question in what world a 120 grain xtp or gold dot out of a 9 is as effective as a 180 grain gold dot or xtp out of a 40s. Same thing goes for the 40 vs 45. Heck a 45 starts out as big as the 9 is expanded. You are right that its in the middle. I think of it like trucks. Theres little Toyota toy trucks and theres 3/4 diesel TRUCKS! Right in the middle theres the f150 and Silverado. The trucks that are the best choice for about everything. bottom line is the 40 is a great round. The 10mm more so. What killed them was soft americans. Sissys that cant handle recoil and our military and police hiring more and more women who are, well women. But in a gun fight or even in hunting ive never seen a situation where more power was a mistake and sorry to burst bubbles but the 40 has more power then the 9. Don't get me wrong. I love 9s. I probably shoot them more then any other round but I don't pretend its something it isn't. Its a compromise. I even carry one more then I do 40s. Mainly because you can get it in a smaller package. One thing I disagree with though is theres allways a winner in caliber wars. The man using the bigger of the two that can handle it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    Nobody wins caliber wars but I'll bite

    I don't hate the 40 S&W but I never warmed up to it. It terms of diameter, the 40 S&W falls exactly between the 9mm and the 45 ACP. I never felt like the gap between 9mm and 45 ACP was a big enough gap that we needed to put something in the middle, but we did just that. I'm not saying it was a bad idea to fill that gap, just saying I'm not sure we needed to fill that gap.

    I also would not say that the 9mm is "....just as powerful and effective as the 40 S&W" but I will say it is just as effective.

    I find it interesting that a 9mm bullet of .355" diameter, weighing around 115-125 grain and easily travelling over 1200 fps is often considered by some to be inadequate and yet that's far more energy than most 38 Special cartridges deliver. The 38 Special was, and still is, considered to be an adequate self defense cartridge.

    When you get right down to the truth, all handguns are rather poor tools to stop a human attacker. Some handgun rounds are better than others but NONE of them are great at stopping human attackers. A handgun is better than harsh language but not as good as a long gun.

    When one looks at actual results from shootings, a 115-125 grain +P 9mm hollow point has a pretty good track record, as handgun cartridges go. The 40 S&W is no slouch but nor are other common self defense cartridges. None of the common handgun cartridges significantly stand out above the pack. A 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 9mm Luger, 40 S&W and 45 ACP are ALL capable of penetrating deep enough to stop a fight.

    A lot of people are fond of pointing out that a 40 S&W cartridge delivers a bullet that is heavier than a 9mm projectile and faster than a 45 ACP projectile
    BUT.....
    I like to point out that the 40 S&W projectile is lighter than a 45 ACP bullet and slower than a 9mm projectile.

    Like I said, nobody wins caliber wars.

  3. #23
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    Bingo! Fact!
    Quote Originally Posted by onelight View Post
    the velocity with a .40 will be close to 9mm with bullets that have a similar sectional density.
    135 in 40 and 115 in 9 , 155 in 40 and 125 in 9 , 180 in 40 and 147 in 9.
    There is a reason the .40 has more recoil . It is more powerful .

  4. #24
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    I don't want a safety or for SURE a mag disconnect on any combat weapon. I like over half the police depts. in the country have carried glocks for years without a single incident. If they were truly unsafe or dangerous they would surely have all been pulled out of service in this sue happy world. Maybe if I still had kids at home id think different but even when I did there was a cocked and locked 1911 by my bed. Trick to it all is teaching respect for guns and actually learning how to handle and carry them. Safety is between your ears. Always was and always will be.

  5. #25
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    Not sure I agree with this statement that Lloyd wrote: "...What killed them [40 S&W and 10mm] was soft americans. Sissys that cant handle recoil and our military and police hiring more and more women who are, well women."

    First - I don't believe the 40 S&W has been killed off, so to speak. I think the 9mm simply regained some market share that it lost in the mid 1990's. The 40 S&W isn't going the way of the Dodo bird, it's here to stay but it will not remain a top seller.

    Second - I don't think the 40 S&W's loss of market share is due to recoil sensitive women or "soft" Americans. I'll leave the misogynist characterizations out of this discussion and say that I've seen plenty of people, men & women, that can shoot pistols chambered in 40 S&W just fine. I don't think it's a difficult cartridge to master.
    I think the higher potential capacity offered by the 9mm is a factor. I think the terminal performance of the 9mm Luger cartridge is well proven. I think the worldwide NATO distribution and acceptance of the 9mm is a factor for the military. I think the higher round count for the same weight is a factor for the military. I think a lot of LE agencies look to the FBI for guidance in selection of ammunition (and I don't view that as a good thing). I think COST is a huge factor. And I think handgun projectiles of roughly 36 caliber have a LONG history of acceptance in America and beyond.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Well it does not need to be a war of what is better , I feel they all have there place and it is what each individual wants to shoot or carry or likes , same with safety or no safety , the 1911 has several built in as do glocks , as to the lever safety again personal choice and or looks .

    Same with holsters and position of carry ,choice of ammo , cast or jacketed , revolver or semi-auto . Funny how caliber and or model stirs up feelings , and magazine disconnects as a choice , I prefer without a disconnect but have hi-powers with them so it is not a big deal to me , I always load out of the magazine anyway and carry spares , but there is a market or some purchasers who specified the want .

    Back to the G22 , has a different length of barrel then the G19 or G35 again a personal preference , I carry a full size when I carry which is all the time , I am glad there are the choices , caliber , model , maker, length , and finish , I also prefer blue and wood , but have plastic or rubber grips and maybe some that are not blue .

    Anyway back to watching the caliber war .

  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    A 1911 Commander in .40 would be neat.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  8. #28
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    I guess I'm the odd duck in the bunch! When Law Enforcement went to semi-auto handguns, and I saw a drastic rise in Officer deaths, I stopped firearms training, as I was a Firearms Training Instructor for many years!

    Everyone's thought was the mentality of the verbal "pray and spray" and the more rounds you could send down range the better!

    I still shoot what "I" feel is the best self protection handguns that have ever been produced - S&W 686, Ruger GP-100 and Colt Python, all 357 magnums, which to this day is still the best one-shot-stop of all time, and with a 125 gr. JHP @ a minimum of 1,500 fps..

    I have boxes with literally thousands of pages of reports of police shootings from all over the Unites States dating back to 1975, and to this day, no other gun or cartridge has proven to be more effective as a man stopper than the 357 magnum. The 158 gr. JHP was the most popular bullet of choice in "cold" or wintertime weather conditions, because the heavier weight offered better penetration through heavy coats and jackets, and if you had to shoot through a winshield, those 158 gr. bullets while not a magic bullet, performed admirably!

    Accuracy was also far superior to most any semi-auto pistol at the time of transition, and there were also far less bystanders that were shot and wounded and or killed from stray bullets!

    Me myself, I carry the 3 mentioned revolvers above, all with 158 gr. JHP bullets, and have NEVER felt undergunned, and I have been in several fire fights in my time!

  9. #29
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    40 vs. 9mm debate COSTS TOO

    Ammo cost of the 40 was one of the determining factors too. Add to the fact most police recruits have little pistol shooting experience. Competitive shooters shoot alot of ammo per year. In IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Assoc.) almost all shooter are using 9mm. USPSA formerly called (IPSC) UNITES STATES PRACTICAL SHOOTERS ASSOC. alot of 45 shooters have switched to 9mm. Costs of ammo or components is a large contributing factor. afish4570

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    Cost for us reloader / casters is small compared to those who do not reload or cast , but I have had a woman in a gun shop tell me 9mm was to cheap and not practical to load for , I laughed and said I guess if you do not make your own bullet or save your brass .

    I like the 357 magnum also , along with a lot of other styles and calibers , used to load it hot , now I find more enjoyment out of more middle of the road loads .

  11. #31
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    I also would not say that the 9mm is "....just as powerful and effective as the 40 S&W" but I will say it is just as effective.
    I think a better point would be that it is just as effective for some things. I've seen all the studies that indicate that the 9mm is statistically as effective as both the .40 S&W and the .45 acp, when it comes to stopping people. They also indicate that the lowly .380 auto is very nearly as effective as well. That is fascinating information that once again highlights the importance of marksmanship and shot placement over caliber. Statistics aside, I would still prefer having a .45 in my hand than a .380, if I actually had to use it. On the other hand, those statistics do make me feel better about carrying a .380 when I do.

    So, while the 9mm may be just as effective as the .40 for many if not most human sized targets, physics alone dictates that it cannot be "as effective" in all circumstances. For shooting sports that require a certain amount of energy to knock over a target, the .40 has an edge. For walking in the woods where you could encounter predators tougher than humans, the .40 has the edge.

    All that said, there's no caliber war for me; I like them all!

    Honestly I would prefer the 9mm if I had to only have one. As a caster and reloader, cost of ammo is not an issue. The cost difference between loading the two (as a caster) is negligible. I do load and shoot a lot more 9mm, but I bought a Sub-2000 in .40 a while back. I bought the .40 Glock mag version because I already have Glock 22 mags, but I kind of wish I had bought the 9mm version instead. I've heard stories about the Sub-2000 in .40 not holding up with a lot of use.

  12. #32
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    ill agree its sure not completely dead. but sales are lacking and used ones go for a good 100 bucks less then the same model in 9. But the military left the 45 behind because the troops and the new wave of women in the military couldn't handle recoil. At least that was one of there reasons. The fbi ditched the 10 for the 40 because of recoil and one of the main reasons they went back to the 9 was new recruits, especially the females were struggling with the 40. FACT is the 9 is just easier to teach someone who never shot a gun or someone that doesn't want to put in the time to master a bit bigger gun. Granted not all women struggle but you know as well as I do that was one of the reasons the military, fbi and local and state police have gone to the 9mm. They try justifying it by saying with this new high tech ammo the 9 is as effective as the 40. Maybe as effective as the 40 was in the 70s with 70s bullet technology but the exact same bullets they brag on for the 9 are available in the BIGGER and MORE POWERFUL 40 and 45. If you want to talk all American hero its hands down the 45. The 36 cals have allways been considered weaker little sisters to the 45. Be it the cap and ball, the colt saa or in the military up to and including viet nam and still in many special forces ranks. I guess I have to ask whats next? In 30 year when this video game culture of kids grows up and goes to war and there kids which will be softer yet goes to war are they going to arm them with 22lr with some woopy te doo hp killer bullet One thing any handgun hunter knows and especially anyone that uses cast bullets is that SIZE MATTERS. Matter to us and it matter to anyone who has to actually kill something. Youd think with all this bs about the 9s and there HIGH TECK KILLING MACHINE NEW TECHNOLOGY bullets your hear talked about we would be seeing them with scopes on them in the deer, bear, pig and elk hunting woods. If that bullet kills like they claim on a human it sure would be deadly on a deer!!! Blow them right into the next century
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    Not sure I agree with this statement that Lloyd wrote: "...What killed them [40 S&W and 10mm] was soft americans. Sissys that cant handle recoil and our military and police hiring more and more women who are, well women."

    First - I don't believe the 40 S&W has been killed off, so to speak. I think the 9mm simply regained some market share that it lost in the mid 1990's. The 40 S&W isn't going the way of the Dodo bird, it's here to stay but it will not remain a top seller.

    Second - I don't think the 40 S&W's loss of market share is due to recoil sensitive women or "soft" Americans. I'll leave the misogynist characterizations out of this discussion and say that I've seen plenty of people, men & women, that can shoot pistols chambered in 40 S&W just fine. I don't think it's a difficult cartridge to master.
    I think the higher potential capacity offered by the 9mm is a factor. I think the terminal performance of the 9mm Luger cartridge is well proven. I think the worldwide NATO distribution and acceptance of the 9mm is a factor for the military. I think the higher round count for the same weight is a factor for the military. I think a lot of LE agencies look to the FBI for guidance in selection of ammunition (and I don't view that as a good thing). I think COST is a huge factor. And I think handgun projectiles of roughly 36 caliber have a LONG history of acceptance in America and beyond.

  13. #33
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    effective for some things> theres the real fact. Its a good round for small concealable guns when you don't want to carry or cant carry a big gun. Its also a GREAT round for us casters for a plinker. Not much is cheaper to shoot then a 9 with cast bullets. To me it has replaced the 22lr. About as cheap to shoot and a heck of a lot more fun. but how many of us here if were honest and had a 250 lb man busting through the front door and your kids were standing behind you and you had two guns sitting there. A glock 22 loaded with 180 grain gold dots or a glock 17 loaded with 120 grain gold dots would actually prefer the 9?

  14. #34
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    I don't believe the military abandoned the 45ACP because of female military members. The U.S.A. was the only NATO member using something other than the 9mm, the 9mm allowed more ammo for a given weight and the 9mm allows more capacity in the pistol. So I don't buy the reason for the switch as, ".....new wave of women in the military couldn't handle recoil."


    As for your statement, "...Granted not all women struggle but you know as well as I do that was one of the reasons the military, fbi and local and state police have gone to the 9mm."
    I'll be the judge of what I KNOW. I don't think you have the ability to read my mind so how about you confine your opinions to what you believe?
    You seem to be really fixated on recoil and female shooters.

  15. #35
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    I have to agree with Mr. Smale on the vast majority of the things he said. After watching many people shoot over the years I have seen many people shoot low recoil firearms fairly well but bump up the recoil slightly and they "drop the ball " big time. And a lot of the times it does take much of an increase if they are at the top of their recoil tolerance window with what they are shooting already.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by afish4570 View Post
    ...Competitive shooters shoot alot of ammo per year. In IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Assoc.) almost all shooter are using 9mm. USPSA formerly called (IPSC) UNITES STATES PRACTICAL SHOOTERS ASSOC. alot of 45 shooters have switched to 9mm. Costs of ammo or components is a large contributing factor. afish4570
    My take on caliber choice in the action pistol sports is a bit different. I think it's driven by the nature of the sport, the desire to look for competitive advantage, and the rules meant to constrain that desire for the sake of making it a game of skill rather than who can afford the latest equipment tweak or load down cat sneeze levels.

    At least for USPSA, winning involves scoring the most points in the least time, which favors light kicking cartridges that allow fast recoil recovery and that can be stuffed into magazines in large numbers, thus minimizing time consuming magazine changes (ultra high capacity "big sticks" are allowed in some divisions, but most restrict mag length). That means 9mm has considerable advantages, except in divisions where the rules were written specifically to support the larger cartridges (Single Stack) and heavier recoil (major power factor) of the 45 ACP and the 40 S&W.

    True the cost per round is higher with the 45 and 40 vs 9mm, but I think the move to 9mm is more motivated by competitive advantage, along with the fact that the fastest growing division is Production, where the dominant cartridge is 9mm because it's the most common chambering for the off the shelf handguns folks buy in their LGS, which the division is meant to support.
    Last edited by kevin c; 05-24-2020 at 03:37 PM.

  17. #37
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    tell you what. You post what you want and ill post what I want. Unless we break a rule then a moderator can decide
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    I don't believe the military abandoned the 45ACP because of female military members. The U.S.A. was the only NATO member using something other than the 9mm, the 9mm allowed more ammo for a given weight and the 9mm allows more capacity in the pistol. So I don't buy the reason for the switch as, ".....new wave of women in the military couldn't handle recoil."


    As for your statement, "...Granted not all women struggle but you know as well as I do that was one of the reasons the military, fbi and local and state police have gone to the 9mm."
    I'll be the judge of what I KNOW. I don't think you have the ability to read my mind so how about you confine your opinions to what you believe?
    You seem to be really fixated on recoil and female shooters.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    tell you what. You post what you want and ill post what I want. Unless we break a rule then a moderator can decide
    You know as well as I do that people who gravitate towards large calibers are compensating for some physical shortcoming.......
    Last edited by Petrol & Powder; 05-25-2020 at 09:34 AM.

  19. #39
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    Or maybe are just used to a bit more then TINY

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    Or maybe are just used to a bit more then TINY
    Congratulations, you almost managed to string 11 words together without a spelling or grammar error.

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