Is sub MOA possible with Cast ?

[kens]

my experience with cast rifle loads is that tight groups are easy, provided you keep velocity down.
Now most everybody, including me, is a speed freak wanting to go high velocity.
That is the rub for cast loads,; as velocity goes upward, the difficulty to hold those same tight groups goes upward also
So, to get tight groups for me is easy as long as I keep velocity down.

[rockrat]

Have a 338 win mag, that put 3 shots in under 1/2". I quit load development then. Didn't shoot a 5 shot group as I was a bit nervous then and knew I would ruin a nice group if I continued shooting. IIRC, it was a 245gr boolit from a mould that Tom made for me.

[dtknowles]

So I'm curious,after watching a ton of videos on cast bullets I don't think I've seen any that shiw cast bullets grouping better than many 1.5" at 100yd. Now I could be totally wrong but seems to be the common deal and fist sized groups are whats expected. Now I'm no bench rest shooter but I love small groups with my relaods and wanted to know is it possible to get sub MOA groups with cast bullets ? It's it possible with a bit of extra work or is it just not there ? Are certain calibers in cast more in inherently accurate ?

People who shoot small groups using cast bullets are not often interested in YouTube or other video sites. Their fame comes from places like "The Fowling Shot.



The comps happen many times each year and always a bunch of under 1 moa groups.

Tim

[Stephen Cohen]

Certainly one can shoot moa or sub moa 3 or 5 shot groups with a capable rifle/shooter/ammo combination. Shoot enough "groups" and it will happen. The trick is to shoot those groups consistently...….

As to what size "groups"?

When you were back in the 7th grade and you looked at that cute young gal sitting across the aisle next to you and she smiled......a 3 shot group has all the promise of that smile.....

A few years later slow dancing with that same girl at a school dance and she rubs up to you and smiles again when the teachers aren't looking......a 5 shot group has just about the same promise...….

Now a few years later you're in college and she walks up to you after class and says..."lets go get a beer and then go to your place"...…...that's the promise of a 10 shot group...….

You Sir are a dead set romantic. Still smiling. Regards Stephen

[charlie b]

If interested in specific loads and calibers you can look at some of these match results

https://castbulletassoc.org/match-results

[waksupi]

My .358 Win will shoot under an inch. I can't stand one little hole though, so purposely start nibbling the edges of the hole with each shot. Best I got was around 3/4", but blame eyesight and holding on that. If it were machine mounted, it would go in under a half inch all day, using full power loads.



https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1Q...MSE3VOTxmbAbm3

[rking22]

For the op, if you are considering starting with a fast twist 5.56 I think you may become frustrated before the learning is done. Note that most people are showing success with larger calibers and slower twist rates. Not saying it can’t be done, just that starting with a small bore is going to engineering school before finishing Jr High.
I hate shooting from the bench and chasing mechanical accuracy, preferring to test the me+rifle system. That said I have approached moa with a 7.62x39, Ruger NO1 not SKS! My Kimber Classic 308 does just about the same 1.25 or so with cast that it does with jacked hunting bullets, only at 2000fps instead of 2750. Bigger bullets cast easier and weight variation is a smaller percentage of the total.

[mattw]

Definitely doable. My daughter is learning my bench rifles and has shot 2 groups with cast that were tight 1 hole and a called flier. She will pull together a 5 shot tight one hole soon. 221 fireball, McGowan bull bull barrel, 40XBR, 1.5 ounce trigger and Leopold 8x32. She did not expect bench guns to be such a challenge, but she is getting there. I had never shot cast in my bench guns and she wanted to try it out, so made and sorted several hundred 60 grain NOE's and started load work up.

[lar45]

Plain jain Mauser 30-06 with 165 Ranch Dog Plain Base and some WC820



30-06 XCB with 14 twist Shillen 160gn XCB bullet with GC sized .309 lubed with 2500+
The group includes the first shot flier from a cold barrel.



30-06 XCB with 14 twist Shillen 160gn XCB bullet with GC lubed with Carnauba Blue.
The group includes the first shot flier from a cold barrel.



9.3x57 Mauser with NOE cast bullet. Didn't quite make the 1" mark, but was close.
very little load developement on this one as someone was kind enough to send me some boolits to see if I like it before buying the mold...

[mehavey]

See
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post2466518
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...27&postcount=8

Run of the mill stuff.
The realpros are 1/4 MOA

[charlie b]

Here are some more. First one at 200 rest at 100, various loads. Same rifle. Second one was sighting in my plinking load (subsonic). Last two were conventional lube. Others were powder coated.

[Winger Ed.]

? It's it possible with a bit of extra work or is it just not there ?

Tiny little groups are quite reachable.
With cast, or with anything else, it's like getting good grades in school---- ya gotta do your homework.

[Gtek]

Sorry for the misdirect of thread but it just crossed my bow. Do you think some people think us odd that "WE" draw little circles and numbers on the paper that we made holes in and have notebooks of these filled with them?

[MT Gianni]

Similar to the do I sort brass or bullets questions, I think. Look at it like dunking a basketball. Because I cannot do it, it would be easy to assume it can't be done. Yet visual proof tells me it can. It also has some come out saying it is impossible or they could dunk at age 65 and 5'6".

[mehavey]

"...people think us odd that "WE" draw little circles and numbers on the
paper that we made holes in and have notebooks of these filled with them ? "

Y'all have seen this... right ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBA2sDwzfqA

[rking22]

Finally, a YouTube worth watching! Made me smile.

[Larry Gibson]

So I'm curious,after watching a ton of videos on cast bullets I don't think I've seen any that shiw cast bullets grouping better than many 1.5" at 100yd. Now I could be totally wrong but seems to be the common deal and fist sized groups are whats expected. Now I'm no bench rest shooter but I love small groups with my relaods and wanted to know is it possible to get sub MOA groups with cast bullets ? It's it possible with a bit of extra work or is it just not there ? Are certain calibers in cast more in inherently accurate ?

The OP asks several questions. The primary question being; "is sub MOA possible with cast?"

So OP, let's answer your questions.

Yes, sub moa is possible. However, you refer to "groups" at 100 yards. You do not (as with most of these type of discussion) tell us how many shots are in that groups you ask about; 3 shots, 5 shots or 10 shots? Thus not defining the level of "accuracy" (precision) you are simply asking about "sub MOA" . Not being facetious, but every "one shot group" is sub moa...….see what I mean? A definition of sub MOA group "accuracy", by the size of the group, really needs to be quantified with the number of shots required to make that "group".

Next you state and ask; "Now I'm no bench rest shooter but I love small groups with my reloads and wanted to know is it possible to get sub MOA groups with cast bullets ?"

T be honest with you not being a "bench rest shooter" the odds are very slim that you have the rifle, the casting skill, the reloading skill or the shooting skill to consistently shoot "sub MOA with cast". Yes, you may occasionally shoot sub moa with 3 shot groups, and even with one or two 5 shot groups being "sub MOA". With average or even good casting, loading and shooting skills with a "regular rifle, commercial or milsurp just how many and how often you ever fire any of those sub MOA groups will depend on how many groups you shoot. The size of the groups will be based on random selection and dispersion of the shots within the actual grouping capability (precision capability) of the load, the rifle and you, the shooter.


"Is it possible with a bit of extra work or is it just not there ?"

Yes, it is "possible". However, the odds are slim against being able to do it consistently and "on demand" unless you do become "a bench rest shooter" and invest the time, money and energy into it.

And lastly you ask; "Are certain calibers in cast more in inherently accurate ?"

The answer, given commercial cartridges in commercial rifles, to that will be debated and never answered. With custom rifles and cartridges built to shoot smaller groups with cast bullets there are numerous cartridges that are claimed to be "the most accurate". As you look at numerous match results understand that because someone wins a match(s) or championship many think if they only buy a rifle like his, a mould like his and use his load then they too will consistently shoot small groups like he does. While good rifles, a good cartridge, good moulds and good loads are going to be essential to consistently shooting "sub MOA" groups you will not buy your way to that. That is why you see 1.5" or "fist sized" cast bullet groups accepted as "the norm".

As I said; unless you do become "a bench rest shooter" and invest the time, money and energy into it" the odds are slim. Even then, should you chase "sub MOA" accuracy, you will find that goal to be an elusive, alluring and demanding quest...…..

[DonHowe]

The thing about shooting tiny groups is well, everything. Once you have an sub-moa rifle you have just begun. You can buy the equipment but you can't buy tiny groups. That takes attention to detail in crafting your ammunition and especially in casting and prepping good bullets that fit properly. But then it takes a lot of time at the bench learning good bench and shooting technique. One writer put it this way, "The name of the game is the same, your technique being as nearly the same as possible for each and every shot. But then, especially with the lower velocity of most cast boolit loads, there is learning to read the wind. All this matters.
It may seem like "if it is that complicated why bother?" Thing is, even if all one does is plink, to consistently hit what is shot at all these things are happening (except reading wind at short range). We just normally don't give them a thought unless we set a demanding goal or if shooting competitively and really want to improve our performance.
If you give yourself permission to fail, don't obsess over it but try to learn from it this process is not stressful. Don't compare your groups on target to anyone else, only to you last one. For me it is a labor of love, deeply satisfying.

By the time I got around to benchrest single shot matches and really working on technique I had lost my 20/20 right eye and was learning to shoot left handed with a 20/200 eye. Obviously I never won a match ( my best score was a 245/250 @ 200yds) but attention to details enabled me to never finish in last place, or even close. I never rubbed that in but some friends did on occasion.

[dtknowles]

I was frustrated by the rarity of me shooting sub moa groups. None of the gun I owned were known tack drivers but I was nagged by the though that I might be the problem not the guns or ammo.

I bought a used bench rest rifle in 6mm ppc and a nice front rest and rear bag. Pretty quickly I was shooting quarter moa groups, not every group but nothing over half moa. I would not win any comps but at least I knew that I was not the problem but instead it was either the guns or the ammo. I bought a second used bench rest gun. This one was in 30 BR Long. It does not shoot my cast bullets into less than one moa groups very often. I know the problem is the ammo and really it is the bullets as it will shoot under one moa all the time with j words.

I you are not already shooting tiny groups then don't expect to shoot your cast bullets into tiny groups.

Tim

[Green Lizzard]

Lots and lots of lucky 3 shot "wallet" groups, quite a few lucky 5 shot groups, but from what I've seen over the last fifty years, not to many lucky 10 shot groups

Bill