Is sub MOA possible with Cast ?

[DonHowe]

What a 10 shot group tells you is how good you are at firing 10 consecutive shots identically in a given set of conditions. I AM NOT disputing Larry Gibson. Just sayin you can't take the shooter out of the equation and the more consecutive shots fired the more chances for lapse of concentration.
I agree a 3 shot group is not much of an indicator UNLESS a shooter can produce the same size 3 shot group any time of day on any range under favorable conditions.

[35remington]

Ever notice when someone shows a small group it is pretty much never accompanied by any number of similar sized groups shot on the same piece of paper?

There is a reason for that.

[kokomokid]

Been fire forming some 308 Lapua brass to 308 imp with cast bullets and 17 grain 2400 powder. Used Lee dipper so it was +/- 17 grain. Slow twist Krieger bbl on a Stiller action and had several 5 shot groups below .5" but mostly four shot cluster with one out making 1" plus or minus group. Shot off joystick rest and 42x scope. Boolits were 175 grain Saeco copy by Accurate.

[robg]

my wife laminated my best groups .i think 5 shot groups more representative than 3.ive shot 1 moa groups and know my equipment can do it all the time but,big but,im the weak link .its fun trying .

[bobthenailer]

Yes ! have done it many times with cast bullets in rifles & RPM SS pistol in 357 and 30/20

[Iowa Fox]

Its doable but your going to work at it hard and spend some money. Factory guns aaren't going to get you there consistantly. Anymore at my age 1 1/2 to 2" is good enough for me. I'm not going to spend anymore time or money for better.

[Krag1902]

I have five Krag sporters, issue barrels and commercial receiver sights. I shoot about 400 five shot groups a summer through them 16 groups per range trip). Last summer I shot four groups under an inch. its unusual, but it can and does happen. My guns average maybe 1.5-1.75 inch. But to get back to the question - yes, it is possible.

[quilbilly]

Every barrel has a personality when it comes to cast. I have three rifle that shoot sub-moa groups with regularity, a 308, 223, and a 7mm TCU carbine. There are others that shoot MOA once and a while. The 308 did it right out of the box on the first day after purchase. The 223 took almost a year testing with several powders and three different molds but now shoots right with jacketed accuracy wise. On the other hand, my old 6mm Rem hates cast so now only gets fed jacketed for sub-moa groups but my wife's 243 loves cast. You never know but the journey is great fun.

[444ttd]

i was trying to sight my 9.3x57 in. on the bottom left is an average 5 shot group at 100 yards(280gr fn gc and 4895). the three shots are cloverleafed, while the other 2 are not. it goes roughly 1 1/4" but if i really really really try, it will go sub minute. but i don't "try" anymore. 3" group at 100 yards(3 - 5 shots) is fine for me. 2" is a good group, while 1"+/- group makes me ecstatic. sub minute group makes me faint!!!!!!!

i do not do a competitive shooting/benchrest match, never have, never will. i can do a .1 - .2" at 100 yards(10 shots/bench) with my 20 vartarg/223/22-250ai. BUT.... i measure each case by weight, case length, inside neck reaming, measure the powder, bullet weight......and on and on. it was fun but it got boring after while. every rifle(back then) could do a sub minute group (j-word 5 shots) any day of the week and twicet on sunday. but that got boring too. 8 years ago, i had a stroke and the right side of my body is only about 20% good. being a lefty, shooting didn't bother me. the flinching did!!!!! it took me about a year to not flinch. it took me another year to do a .1-.2" group.

7 or 8 years ago, i got into casting my own boolits. i like it so much that i got rid of all jacketed bullets except one(20vt and 34gr midway hp). the deer hate them but my shoulder likes'em. my fasted is the 30-40 krag with 165gr ranch dog that goes avg 1930fps. the slowest(rifle) is a 500 linebaugh with 450gr lfn gc and it goes avg 1235fps.

a sub minute cast boolit (5 or 10 shots/100 yards) is what we look for, but for many of us, it is unobtainable. a 3 shot group, yes it is obtainable. a 5 shot group should be obtainable(guy, rifle, cast boolits...). 10 shot group(s) can be obtainable(for a few guys/girls) but i and many others don't.

[444ttd]

i was trying to sight my 9.3x57 in. on the bottom left is an average 5 shot group at 100 yards(280gr fn gc and 4895). the three shots are cloverleafed, while the other 2 are not. it goes roughly 1 1/4" but if i really really really try, it will go sub minute. but i don't "try" anymore. 3" group at 100 yards(3 - 5 shots) is fine for me. 2" is a good group, while 1"+/- group makes me ecstatic. sub minute group makes me faint!!!!!!!

i do not do a competitive shooting/benchrest match, never have, never will. i can do a .1 - .2" at 100 yards(10 shots/bench) with my 20 vartarg/223/22-250ai. BUT.... i measure each case by weight, case length, inside neck reaming, measure the powder, bullet weight......and on and on. it was fun but it got boring after while. every rifle(back then) could do a sub minute group (j-word 5 shots) any day of the week and twicet on sunday. but that got boring too. 8 years ago, i had a stroke and the right side of my body is only about 20% good. being a lefty, shooting didn't bother me. the flinching did!!!!! it took me about a year to not flinch. it took me another year to do a .1-.2" group.

7 or 8 years ago, i got into casting my own boolits. i like it so much that i got rid of all jacketed bullets except one(20vt and 34gr midway hp). the deer hate them but my shoulder likes'em. my fasted is the 30-40 krag with 165gr ranch dog that goes avg 1930fps. the slowest(rifle) is a 500 linebaugh with 450gr lfn gc and it goes avg 1235fps.

a sub minute cast boolit (5 or 10 shots/100 yards) is what we look for, but for many of us, it is unobtainable. a 3 shot group, yes it is obtainable. a 5 shot group should be obtainable(guy, rifle, cast boolits...). 10 shot group(s) can be obtainable(for a few guys/girls) but i and many others don't.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/attach/jpg.gif

[444ttd]

this one should be right.........
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/attach/jpg.gif

[kokomokid]

I am quite happy with light load groups at 100yds but adding speed and distance is what really impresses me. When I look at groups Larry Gibson has shot at distance with the afterburner kicked on-- well it is having it all together.

[dverna]

Larry Gibson gave you the best insight IMHO.

BTW, starting with a 5.56 in cast is not a good place to be, and you can look forward to an immense level of frustration. I would suggest NOT even trying unless you are more of an experimenter and diddler than a shooter. Most of the guys here are slanted to enjoying the journey...casting and reloading. Sub MOA requires spending hours at both endeavors.

And, as mentioned, you still need to be a very good shooter to get to the level you wish.

Plan on spending 100+ hours to learn how to cast decent bullets. Most of us started with something simple like .38's or 45's. Shot them in pistols so accuracy was not critical and they are easy to cast. Walk before you run. Cast .224's are a nightmare.

My advice is buy a case of these: 55 Gr Hornady SP. I got mine for $420 for 6000. They will beat any cast bullet out of a 5.56. You will piss away $400 in molds, alloy, gas checks, and components to find a load that may shoot twice as poorly. ..if you are lucky.

Develop your shooting and reloading skills with them until you are consistently sub MOA. If you cannot do it with jacketed, you will never do it with cast.

If you want to start with cast in a rifle caliber, get one of the cheap bolt actions in .308 and start with that. My T/C Compass is MOA with jacketed so the gun is capable. The Ruger and Savage are also good. But set a realistic goal....2 MOA (5 shots) with cast is very good accuracy for anyone. Do NOT beat yourself up with the results others post.

Have fun. First decide if your love is shooting or casting/reloading/testing. You can tell, I would never reload or cast if I could buy at a good enough price...I am a shooter. Casting and reloading is means to an end for me...some shoot to reload and cast.

[Wolfdog91]

Ok so alot to take in from juat reading all the responses lol. So I'm seeing that alot of you guys are much more....detailed then me I
guess would be the proper wording. So mabye I should try to explain a little better what I want. And I hope I'm not coming across rude here by the way ! Really appricate eveyones responses! I can tell some of y'all have been doing this for a looking time.

Anyhow ,when I'm saying I want a sub MOA group and I like small groups I'm not say I want all my groups to be 100% 3-10round in a cloverleaf at 100yd. I mean id love that but honestly that level of precision is just a little beyond me currently I feel lol. Basically I want to be able to keep a 1" group at 100yd. I don't need bench rest precision but would really like somthing better shooting than store bought.

Now the gun in planning on using can do that already. I have two pet loads for it already with jacketed bullets that I know for a fact will group sub MOA if I do my part decently. Here A a group from re last time i took it out. Honestly wasn't my best shooting but with the load shining off of a bipod and a rear bad at 100yd it does this type of group pretty constantly ( which is an amazing thing for alot of people around here lol. Generally putting 3round okkn a coffee can at 100 with a 3-9 scope is considered the marks of a sniper in these parts lol )

And I have had better groups but if have to dig around to find the targets. But again with the two loads I have worked up thus upper will do this pretty constantly. So I feel I'm somewhat cover on the have a decent shooting gun.

Now as far as why I'm picking a 5.56 gas gun to start cast with is well mainly because I have so much brass. I'd say a good 70%of my range pick up brass is Lake City 5.56 . Like I have a ton if it and would really like to be able to shoot more . Reloading with jacked bullets currently has my prices cut down pretty well for the quality I'm getting but when I did the math an say how my cast bullets I can roughly expect from a pound of lead it's even cheaper. Especially if I'm just loading some plinking ammo.

Now as far as it taking time and alot of fiddling to get to where I want ,I'm perfectly fine with that. I get bored of stuff pretty quick if it's too easy so if it's gonna cause me to pull a few hairs or read and ask a bunch if questions I'm actually fine with that, as odd as it my sound lol.

[Stephen Cohen]

If one has a gun that is only capable of a 6'' group and the shooter shoots a 6'' group, would we consider that load to be capable of sub inch groups. Regards Stephen

[M-Tecs]

If one has a gun that is only capable of a 6'' group and the shooter shoots a 6'' group, would we consider that load to be capable of sub inch groups. Regards Stephen

No...

[Larry Gibson]

Wolfdog91

Rifle make and model?

Do you know the twist?

Sight(s)?

[fcvan]

My first cast in an AR 15, a brand new build with a 1/9" twist, gave me a .75 5 shot group. Boolit was a Lyman 225-415 over a book load of IMR4227 chrono'd at 2250 fps. I will call that lucky. I did some work with that gun using a long eye relief 4X fixed and got the same results.

I have a Ruger Mini 14 that was spotty at 100 yards, after all it was built for 4 MOA. I had a buddy who was trained by Ruger to service the Mini 14. He suggested I re-torque the gas block, bingo, 1.5 MOA. This old Mini M180, so it has a 1/10" twist. It started out life as a parkerized SWAT entry weapon with a 14" barrel. When the original agency replaced it with AR 15s, they had to weld and pin a front sight/muzzle device to bring it to 16.1" to be legal. Standard being 18", the velocity is somewhat reduced with factory, not my cast loads. I mostly use the AR and Mini for banging steel and killing tin cans.

Some time ago, I picked up an NOE 225-62 RN plain based boolit, designed just for PC as fooling with those tiny gas check is tedious, making them even more so. It took some tweaking to get them to run in the AR and Mini due to pressure reduction without a gas check. Next time I cast I will harden the alloy a little more and water quench right out of the PC oven. However, I picked up an H&R Handi Rifle with a 1/12" twist with a heavy 24" barrel. The current loads shoot quite well at 2450 fps due to the longer barrel. That rifle has a long eye relief fixed 4x which places the glass just forward of the hammer. This is the tin can killer, and 1 MOA depends more on me than the load. My usual challenge is old shot shells at 100 yards.

1 MOA can be had with cast 223/5.56. However, I need to tweak my cast 308 W loads for an AR 10, M1A, and a bolt gun, just need the time and opportunity. Then, a 7.65 x 53 Argentine Mauser will be the next hurrah. Matching numbers, pristine bore, and has only seen 40 rounds of factory. It was purchased as surplus in the 1950s, unfired, and I was gifted this beauty. I always wanted an old Mauser just for cast, finally got one!

[Wolfdog91]

Wolfdog91

Rifle make and model?

Do you know the twist?

Sight(s)?

Daytona tactical 5.56 upper ,FMK polymer lower, 1:7 twist, Nikon 3-9x40 buck master on top with a generic bipod.

Seems to handle the Hornady 75grain HPBT's I'm currently loading just fine

[charlie b]

If one has a gun that is only capable of a 6'' group and the shooter shoots a 6'' group, would we consider that load to be capable of sub inch groups. Regards Stephen

No. It does mean the shooter might be capable of sub inch groups