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Thread: Red dust in powder

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    Red dust in powder

    I bought an old metal can of IMR 4227 from a friend in a box of powders he doesn't use anymore. So long story short I dumped it in a Tupperware tub to weigh it and it looks and smells fine, except for a fine red dust clinging to side of the tub. So, it's just in the beginning stages of breaking down.

    I wouldnt have noticed if I'd run it into my lee powder measure.

    What would be the danger if I loaded it and shot it right away? Would it act as normal? Would it kaboom my gun? Would it be weird in pressure?

    Thanks for the insite.

    Ps, post 52 shows a picture of the powder in question.

    Bazoo
    Last edited by Bazoo; 10-08-2020 at 04:34 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy Pablo 5959's Avatar
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    It’s rust from the can oxidation. I have a couple of cans doing that, I think from the FIL stored the cans in the garage in the heat of the Central Valley.
    At this point I can’t force myself to dump them yet.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Welllllll.....

    It might be ok, it might not be ok. Why take a chance just to save a couple bucks? Fertilizer for the tomatoes would be my recommendation.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    I looked at the can and it is rusty inside down the seems pretty good.

    So, since the powder looks and smells fine, how will rust dust effect it's use?

    After I poured it in the tub, I put it in a ziploc bag instead of back in the can.

  5. #5
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    Minerat's Avatar
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    I shoot the bottom of a 8# can of 4227 from the 80's that has the red dust with no problems. Checking loads with that batch vs a newer can with no red dust over the Labradar and find very similar velocities that can be easily explained as the difference in lot numbers. No unusual signs of light or over load pressures. I'll keep shooting mine till it is gone. If worried, I'd dump it into a shop towel and give it a good rubbing to get some off. I put one of those moisture absorbing packets in it to keep the can rusting down. But you have to make your own decision on the risks.
    Steve,

    Life Member NRA
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    If you load and fire next day or so ,I dont see any problems ......but I do know the red dust will come back quickly ,and sometimes overnight .....Ive had 4895 turn completely into dust in one week after being sifted .

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy

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    I wonder if you could run a magnet over the powder and pull all red dust out?

    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    I appreciate the replies. I tried running a magnet on the outside of the ziploc bag, but there was no change. It didn't affect the dust on the bag's inner surface.

  9. #9
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    Bazoo -- prefacing with "ignorance writing" -- years back I left powder in loading press powder measures for not too long a period, to observe the clear plastic had been forever discoloured from some sort of chemical interaction from the powder. Yes -- I then read sheet which had come with 'measure, with it clearly written to not leave/store powder in the measure. You piqued my curiosity in using a Zip-lock bag? Once again, I do not know if there'd be any affect. My practice is to always keep the powder in the container it came in -- primarily so, later, I KNOW what powder it really is; and, I understand most powders may change from light -- general advise being to keep powder dark, dry, and cool.
    Again, pardon my ignorance -- just some early morning thoughts I had...
    BEST!
    geo

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    I wouldn't use a ziplok bag for powder storage as it can tear easily and may be a hazard with static. A metal can very good, glass jar ok but be very careful. Also used a peroxide bottle as it's a dark solid plastic similar to the ones used for powder today.

    As for the red dust if there is no acidic smell I'd load a few and try it. To get the dust out of the powder you can pour it slowly into a bowl or container in front of a fan, maybe a foot away. Do this outdoors, let the dust go and the IMR type powder shouldn't get blown around much.

  11. #11
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    Bent Ramrod's Avatar
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    I had a partial large, old can of 4831 with rust from the inside of the can mixed in with the powder. The powder was otherwise dry and odorless. The inside of the can was rust speckled, but not rusted through.

    I picked a nice breezy afternoon, put a large pan on the ground, and slowly poured the powder into the pan from a height of 3 feet or so. The rust blew away in the breeze and the powder was clean. I used it up with no problems.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Jedman's Avatar
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    A friend and myself bought several cans of older IMR powders in 1 lb. cans cheap several years ago from a small gun shop. They all have the red dust in them. We laugh about it when we develop a good shooting load or shoot a deer with the stuff. We prefer to call it red stabilizing dust !
    Doesn’t seem to affect its performance.

    Jedman

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy Rapidrob's Avatar
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    A fine screen kitchen sifter will remove the rust powder. The powder will be fine to use.

  14. #14
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    I still have IMR 3031 that was given to me in paper bags. It's almost all gone. Shoots great! Some of the other cans given to me at the time have red sides in the can (rust). It all shoots great!
    You can miss fast & you can miss a lot, but only hits count.

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    JonB_in_Glencoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazoo View Post
    I looked at the can and it is rusty inside down the seems pretty good.

    So, since the powder looks and smells fine, how will rust dust effect it's use?

    After I poured it in the tub, I put it in a ziploc bag instead of back in the can.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bent Ramrod View Post
    I had a partial large, old can of 4831 with rust from the inside of the can mixed in with the powder. The powder was otherwise dry and odorless. The inside of the can was rust speckled, but not rusted through.

    I picked a nice breezy afternoon, put a large pan on the ground, and slowly poured the powder into the pan from a height of 3 feet or so. The rust blew away in the breeze and the powder was clean. I used it up with no problems.
    Adding to this anecdotal evidence.
    7 or 8 years ago, I bought several cans of powder at a auction (gun shop owner who was a reloader/caster who committed suicide). Three of them were steel 1lb cans shaped like the typical IMR cans. The only label was handwritten 4831 with a grease pencil. The cans were rusty inside. I poured all three cans (one at a time) into a very large bowl, to inspect the contents for uniformity. The powder was dry and NOT clumpy and flowed well, there was red dust, but no acrid smell, no real smell at all. I did the gold panning technique and was able to separate a good portion of the red dust from the powder. After I blended all three together, I then poured it into some saved empty plastic powder containers then properly labeled them.

    I loaded some 30-06 rounds with this powder and some new IMR4831. The results [chrono] were very close...that was good enough for me. I've loaded a few different batches of ammo with it and I still have some of that powder.

    Note to self: I should inspect it, just to see if it's changed any since I last used it...I haven't loaded any rifle ammo for about 2 years.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master Tatume's Avatar
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    According to an old article published in the NRA magazine American Rifleman many years ago, the red particles are not rust from the can. They are decomposing gun powder particles, and in fact are the cause of rust in the can. The red particles also occur in plastic and paper "cans" when the gun powder ages in less than ideal environmental conditions (hot). The article went on to say that the effect is to reduce velocity and pressure, so the powder should be safe to use, though it was not recommended.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy Rapidrob's Avatar
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    Powder that is deteriorating will have a very acidic smell, as in make your eyes water. Rust in the older cans is normal.

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    I appreciate the responses to my query. The powder smells like it should. I'm convinced it is just rust dust.

    As far as storing it in a ziploc bag, it was an expedient container. I have empty powder cans in the attic that I'll dig out in a few days. I have stored powder in ziploc bags in the past. I just put the bags in a cardboard box on the shelf. It was fine for several years.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatume View Post
    According to an old article published in the NRA magazine American Rifleman many years ago, the red particles are not rust from the can. They are decomposing gun powder particles, and in fact are the cause of rust in the can. The red particles also occur in plastic and paper "cans" when the gun powder ages in less than ideal environmental conditions (hot). The article went on to say that the effect is to reduce velocity and pressure, so the powder should be safe to use, though it was not recommended.
    Thanks for that info.
    I'll be tossing any powder like that in the future that I find.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valley-Shooter View Post
    I wonder if you could run a magnet over the powder and pull all red dust out?

    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
    FeO2 (iron oxide, or rust) is not magnetic - in it's pure form. Many times guys think it is, but there are actually teeny rusted pieces of iron or steel inside the rust particles. The rust you are seeing in the can is not from rusting filings or such, but oxide sluffing off from the sides of a solid metal can.

    Personally, I know of no problem (chemically or physically) with a bit of FeO2 in your powder. You're probably talking about 1% or less, right? Try some and see.

    If is is break-down of the actual powder formula as highlighted above, you might just want to toss it.......................or make fireworks out of it! That is really fun!

    ..................just my thoughts.

    banger

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check