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Thread: Case forming warning

  1. #41
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    I'm, not sure what the wood is. It has a Oak type grain but I thought it looked nice in the Catalog

    In my eyes the black stocks will never replace good wood. I have only one rifle in my safes that has a composition stock and that is a 700 Rem Varmint synthetic in the .308 calibre even then it's gray

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    That stock looks typical of what Herters was selling in the late 60's. I have one I rechambered to 30-338. I believe it has the most painful recoil of all I own & I shoot a 50 BMG. The floorplate flies open on each shot. Don't shoot it much any more.

    Bob
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  3. #43
    Boolit Master
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    The thickness alone means nothing if the brass is softer.
    The only way to know is to load until the primer pockets expand.

    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    I would agree if you understood why the Remington case with the thick case head is safer than then the thousands of cases I have that are .200" thick.

    F. Guffey
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    EDG

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    The thickness alone means nothing if the brass is softer.
    The only way to know is to load until the primer pockets expand.
    Yup, Federal and Norma tend to be on the softer side. Lots of the long range competitors determine what the max pressure they are willing to run by when number of fires before the primer pocket loosens. For me I liked to get 8 -10 loadings before loose primer pockets became an issue. Federal always gave me about half of that. I never shot that much Norma but what I did seemed soft also.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
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  5. #45
    Boolit Buddy
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    The thickness alone means nothing if the brass is softer.
    The only way to know is to load until the primer pockets expand.
    Again, I said the thicker case head was the safer case. I did not distinguish between one case head being soft and the other being work hardened.

    The only way to know is to load until the primer pockets expand.
    I will have to say you have limited skills, while the primer pocket is expanding there has to be other things going. You need to be aware or you have chosen to ignore 'other things going on'.

    Bart B fired a 308W case 43 times with full loads with no measurable effect; and I do not believe him.

    F. Guffey

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Interesting thread. By way of a bit of background, several years ago I acquired a Savage 99 High-Power rifle. Brass is almost unobtainable so I reformed some from 30-30 brass using a 25-35 intermediate sizing die. I started with some old Dominion brass, which I have found to be excellent in its original caliber. My failure rate was over 50%. I wound up (after some experimentation) using Federal brass as the donor cases. With the Federal cases I lost very few. After forming a bunch of cases, lack of easily obtained projectiles (either jacketed or cast) caused me to let that project languish. So here are my questions; softer brass does not stand up to as many reloads as harder brass yes/no? Brass "work-hardens" with use yes/no? Cases, when being reformed, often have a significant number of failures (crushed cases). So, if we reform cases using softer brass (i.e. Federal) does the work hardening during the reforming process help/hinder the expected overall case life once the case is successfully reformed??
    R.D.M.

  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    That stock is a Fajen "Regent" model IIRC. As far as thick necks; when Remington brought out the 7mm-08 my brother bought one. In a hurry to shoot it with no factory ammo available- we necked down .308 brass and got bolt sticking pressure with starting loads. We switched to fire forming. 243 brass and the problems went away. That 788 7-08 was crazy loud and crazy accurate with its 18-1/2" barrel.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  8. #48
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    I can not share the details because the details would not be appreciated.

    I was offered a deal on what appeared to be 30/06 national match cases that had never been loaded before from dealer that claimed he purchased the cases from iron and metal yard. The cases had the appearance of being magnificent cases. I purchased all the cases he had and then started loading and shooting. About the third time around I came across a warning about the case. It was claimed the manufacturer changed the process for manufacturing cases, it was said they reduced the number of time the cases were annealed.

    So here are my questions; softer brass does not stand up to as many reloads as harder brass yes/no? Brass "work-hardens" with use yes/no? Cases, when being reformed, often have a significant number of failures (crushed cases). So, if we reform cases using softer brass (i.e. Federal) does the work hardening during the reforming process help/hinder the expected overall case life once the case is successfully reformed??
    MY thinking: The cases I fired from the batch should have had catastrophic failure if the case heads were soft, on the other hand if the eliminated annealing process resulted in the case head being worked harden I could have had a case head that that was too hard to expand; meaning the case head could rupture.

    Later a friend knew he was not going to live forever so he called to ask me if I was interested in cleaning out his shop. While cleaning out his shop I found more of the recalled cases that he had fired. He was one that tested everything to the max. I added the cases to my collectable cases.

    Had the case heads been soft they would have expanded to much during firing to be usable before they would have become work hardened.

    Forming cases does work harden the cases. I do not form cases that are not new or once fired. I do not form cases without a forming die, I have 16 forming dies.

    And then there is necking up and or down; both procedure work harden the neck.

    F. Guffey
    Last edited by fguffey; 05-29-2020 at 10:25 AM.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    Primer pocket expansion is the primary indicator of case head expansion. The expansion of the case at the pressure ring is a secondary indicator of pressure as is sticky extraction.
    If there are "other"things going on maybe you could identify them?

    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    Again, I said the thicker case head was the safer case. I did not distinguish between one case head being soft and the other being work hardened.



    I will have to say you have limited skills, while the primer pocket is expanding there has to be other things going. You need to be aware or you have chosen to ignore 'other things going on'.

    Bart B fired a 308W case 43 times with full loads with no measurable effect; and I do not believe him.

    F. Guffey
    EDG

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    I can not share the details because the details would not be appreciated.
    If you have real information that is always appreciated. Incoherent ramblings and condescending put-downs not so much.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-30-2020 at 07:07 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  11. #51
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    If you have real information that is always appreciated. Incoherent ramblings and condescending put-downs not so much.
    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."

    – Amber Veal
    F. Guffey

  12. #52
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    F. Guffey, apparently you have no real useful information to even base an agreement or disagreement on?????????? If you did you would be willing to share.

    If you backed these statements will any information up we might all learn something. That is why most of us are here.

    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    I can not share the details because the details would not be appreciated.
    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    I will have to say you have limited skills, while the primer pocket is expanding there has to be other things going. You need to be aware or you have chosen to ignore 'other things going on'.
    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    It seems it is impossible for reloaders to understand it is not possible to have cases lengthen from the shoulder to the case head and shorten from then end of the neck to the case head.
    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    I have thought it would be nice if I checked the origin and then I thought about it; I believe I would have trouble finding anyone that would appreciate the effort.
    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    I have very few friends among reloaders because I believe had there been enough pressure to blow the case head back the case would stretch between the case head and case body.
    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    I can only suspect other reloaders do not know how to check the chamber and bolt arrangment. Others are convinsed the firing pin strikes the primer and then the firing pin drives the case, powder and bullet forward until the shoulder of the case hits the shoulder of the chamber. Anyhow, when reloaders start making this stuff up it gets impossible to explain.
    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    I wasted my time but just in case there was a reloader that was interested I did not want to miss them.
    Well you are missing all of us since you are unwilling or unable to share the information that apparently only you have the capacity to understand. Please enlighten the uniformed what we don't understand about reloading and casting. Maybe we will learn something useful.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-31-2020 at 09:55 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackthorn View Post
    ... So here are my questions; softer brass does not stand up to as many reloads as harder brass yes/no?
    It's not that simple Thorney; harder vs. soft brass is a relative thing because both are pretty hard. "Harder brass" can take a little more pressure for a short time but, being harder already, it work hardens faster and can split early. "Soft brass" is quite a bit more tolerant and resistant to work hardening but excess pressure distorts it sooner, meaning softer cases mean more rapidly expanded primer pockets and sticky extraction IF the loads are much hotter than they should be.

    Brass "work-hardens" with use yes/no?
    Yes. But the degree it gets worked in firing and resizing varies a lot. Rate of hardening depends on how extreme the loader resizes his cases i.e., jammed as far into an FL sizer as they can go OR sized just enough so the shoulder is returned to the fired position - which, because of normal length spring back, is usually a couple thou less than chamber length. AND it matters how loose the chamber dimensions are when compared to the internal dimensions of the sizer die, especially the neck.

    <As a side issue, excessive shoulder set back is the real cause of head separations and that's entirely controllable by the loader. When cases are sized correctly, meaning to fit the specific chamber they will be used in, "excessive headspace" for a bottle neck chamber won't matter.>

    Excessively work hardened bodies and necks make for early lengthwise splits. I prefer a sizing combo of a body die combined with Lee's Collet Neck Dies, they do the needed resizing work with an absolute minimum of brass working.

    Cases, when being reformed, often have a significant number of failures (crushed cases).
    Losses in reforming for small changes won't be much but collapse with massive change failures are more common. The degree of case change at each step matters; a good set of reforming dies, one with small steps, AND a really good sizing lube (that's Hornady's Unique for me) will make a huge difference in case reforming losses.

    So, if we reform cases using softer brass (i.e. Federal) does the work hardening during the reforming process help/hinder the expected overall case life once the case is successfully reformed??
    Good question; I ask back, are you doing major or minor reforming? The reforming thing is a "once and done" event and I doubt that's enough to make a significant change in life expectancy.

    I make .22-250 cases from 70+ year old Lake City surplus .30-06 cases; I consider that to be massive. But, after I finally learned how to do it properly, my cases fit my chamber and I rarely have a reforming failure. Then, with proper resizing (meaning minimum working of the cases), I get more than 20 hot loads (and still counting!) with rare (harmless) splits and NO observable head stretching.

    So, bottom line, and like so many other questions in reloading, the only correct answer to your questions is, "It depends on a lot of things." (None of which specifically includes Mr. Guffy's thousands of thick case heads! )
    Last edited by 1hole; 05-31-2020 at 09:06 PM.

  14. #54
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    All brass cases are not created equal. The brass alloys do vary between manufacturers. Same for the stamping, forming and the annealing processes. When and how the manufacture deals with the inprocess work hardening varies.

    https://www.rifleshootermag.com/edit...ase-life/83699

    The useful life of a cartridge case usually ends with an excessively expanded primer pocket or a split neck, and several factors can determine the number of firings it will withstand before calling it quits.

    When a case reaches the final step in its forming process at the factory, work-hardening has made the brass quite hard over its entire length. The head of the case is left that way for strength, but its neck and shoulder are annealed to make them softer and more elastic.

    If you bend a wire coat hanger back and forth repeatedly, it will eventually break at that point because it has lost its elasticity. That's work-hardening. The same thing happens when a cartridge is fired and then reloaded: Its neck expands away from the bullet, and sizing it back to its original diameter during the reloading process causes it to become harder — just like the coat hanger.


    Expand and resize the neck often enough and it will eventually lose its elasticity and split. Softening the necks of cases by annealing as required will prevent this from happening.

    A case with greater hardness in its head area will withstand higher chamber pressures before its primer pocket expands than will a case that's softer in that area. Manufacturers of commercial ammunition have never agreed on exactly how hard the head of a case should be, and there are no better examples of this than 6.5-284 Norma brass made by Norma and Lapua. A maximum load that will give long life in a Lapua case will expand the primer pocket beyond use in a Norma case in three to five firings.


    Same for Federal 308 cases. With Winchester or Lapua I normally get 10 plus loadings before loose primer pockets are an issue. With Federal I would get about half of that. I haven't shot a lot of Norma brass except for the 6mm XC. Vary consistent brass but had the same softer head primer pocket loosening issues compared to Winchester brass. Remington tends to run on the softer side also.

    How Cartridge Brass is Made
    https://www.accurateshooter.com/tech...brass-is-made/
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-31-2020 at 11:50 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  15. #55
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    Some actual tests on case head hardness. Note how soft Remington is.

    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...omment-page-1/

    How Hard is Your Brass? 5.56 and .223 Rem Base Hardness Tests
    Lake City vs. Lapua — which brass is harder? And how about Remington vs. Winchester? Is the widely-held belief that Win brass is harder than Rem brass really true? To help settle these burning questions (raised in a Forum thread), Forum member Catshooter recently sampled the base hardness of four brands of .223/5.56 brass. He employed a very impressive tool for the task — a $2,500 Ames Hardness Gauge. Catshooter explained that his Ames Guage “is FAA certified and approved for testing aircraft engine parts — it does NOT get any better than that!”

    Catshooter measured four cases picked at random from batches of Lake City (LC) 2008 (5.56x45mm), Lapua .223 Rem Match, Winchester .223 Rem, and Remington R-P .223 Rem.


    Lake City Lapua Match Winchester Remington
    Photo Shows Ames Gauge Base Hardness Measurement on Lake City Brass
    .223 Remington Lake City Brass Hardness Lapua Winchester 5.56x45

    Photo Show Ames Gauge Base Hardness Measurement on Winchester Brass
    .223 Remington Lake City Brass Hardness Lapua Winchester 5.56x45

    TEST RESULTS
    Using Rockwell hardness standards (.062″x100kg, Rockwell “B”), the brass measured as follows:

    LC 2008 = 96

    Lapua 223 Match = 86

    Winchester 223 = 69

    Remington “R-P” = 49

    Summary of Test Results
    Catshooter writes: “For all you guys that have believed that Winchester cases were tougher than Remington — you are vindicated, they are a lot tougher! However, Lake City and Lapua are ‘the pick of the litter'”. Catshooter notes that both Lake City and Lapua are significantly harder than either Winchester and Remington .223 brass. That’s something that we’ve observed empirically (Lapua and LC stand up better to stout loads), but now we have some hard numbers to back that up. Hats off to Catshooter for settling the hardness debate with his Ames Hardness Gauge.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-31-2020 at 10:04 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  16. #56
    Boolit Buddy
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    "It depends on a lot of things." (None of which specifically includes Mr. Guffy's thousands of thick case heads!
    When reloaders are claiming surplus cases are heavier than commercial cases reloaders believe all of these ferry tales are correct. They should start the story with "Once upon a time".

    I disagree with reloaders that make claims they can move the shoulder of a case back when sizing. And then there is that very large group that go down the rabbit hole believing they understand neck tension.

    The thick headed cases are not my thick headed cases, I was like all other reloaders that are just ignorant about these matters.


    I made an effort to determine if commercial cases were heavier than arsenal cases. One of the first discoveries was the case head thickness of surplus brass. The case heads were .200" thick. I do not know of another reloader that has ever measured the thickness of a case head. And then I started on R-P 30/06 cases; the case head thickness was .260" thick. I should not have to tell reloaders the case with the .260" thick case head has to be heavier on the case head than the surplus case heads that are .200" etc. etc. etc.

    And then I said the .260" thick R-P cases had to be safer than the cases with the .200" case head.

    And again I should not have to explain to all the reloaders why the .260" case head is safer but I do.

    And then there is the difference between two 30/06 cases with different case head thicknesses?

    F. Guffey

  17. #57
    Boolit Master
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    You claim that the thicker head is stronger but claiming does not provide any proof.
    To prove you are correct you would have to run destructive tests on a variety of cases. That is fire the cases with loads that expand the case heads.

    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    When reloaders are claiming surplus cases are heavier than commercial cases reloaders believe all of these ferry tales are correct. They should start the story with "Once upon a time".

    I disagree with reloaders that make claims they can move the shoulder of a case back when sizing. And then there is that very large group that go down the rabbit hole believing they understand neck tension.

    The thick headed cases are not my thick headed cases, I was like all other reloaders that are just ignorant about these matters.


    I made an effort to determine if commercial cases were heavier than arsenal cases. One of the first discoveries was the case head thickness of surplus brass. The case heads were .200" thick. I do not know of another reloader that has ever measured the thickness of a case head. And then I started on R-P 30/06 cases; the case head thickness was .260" thick. I should not have to tell reloaders the case with the .260" thick case head has to be heavier on the case head than the surplus case heads that are .200" etc. etc. etc.

    And then I said the .260" thick R-P cases had to be safer than the cases with the .200" case head.

    And again I should not have to explain to all the reloaders why the .260" case head is safer but I do.

    And then there is the difference between two 30/06 cases with different case head thicknesses?

    F. Guffey
    EDG

  18. #58
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    You claim that the thicker head is stronger but claiming does not provide any proof.
    To prove you are correct you would have to run destructive tests on a variety of cases. That is fire the cases with loads that expand the case heads.
    I disagree, I had no ideal I was talking to reloaders that can not carry the problem beyond the primer pocket increasing in diameter. I can not will this stuff to happen, it happens; I measure before and again after. I can not get the expansion to focus on the primer pocket expanding.

    You claimed you had a bladed micrometer and I was impressed; I have at least 15. There are better tools, methods and or techniques.

    If I had to measure the diameter of the flash hole with pin gages I would not measure the flash hole because? there are better tools.

    F. Guffey

  19. #59
    Boolit Master
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    Guffy, everyone who has read (and struggled to understand) even a few of your vainglorious proclimations knows you have more of everything than God and are certain you have god-like knowledge of all things firearms related. What we rarely see is any evidence of your own understanding of whatever you post about.

    Examples: FL dies can and do set case shoulders back and no one but you has even mentioned how "heavy" some case heads might be so once again you're vaguely arguing with yourself. Sadly, I can't recall a single instance where your flamboyant self promoting posts have actually contributed anything useful to a discussion.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    I disagree, I had no ideal I was talking to reloaders that can not carry the problem beyond the primer pocket increasing in diameter. I can not will this stuff to happen, it happens; I measure before and again after. I can not get the expansion to focus on the primer pocket expanding.
    OK tell us what we are missing??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check