WidenersLee PrecisionRepackboxRotoMetals2
Inline FabricationMidSouth Shooters SupplyADvertise hereTitan Reloading

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 63

Thread: Case forming warning

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    I live in Eastern Florida
    Posts
    33

    Case forming warning

    I Used to form 6.5-06 cases from .25-06 or 270 brass. Worked great. Then I tried some militaty 30-06 and I think I had a thick neck-to the point where I blew up the gun. Welded the bolt shut, couldn’t open.

    A tribute to the Remington 700 action! Held all that escaping gas.
    Shotgun

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master
    Mk42gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Butler, MO
    Posts
    6,458
    Each chamber is different, especially wildcats that have been around a long time. It really pays to check and be sure.

    For example my particular 6.5-06 happily digests WW .30-06 brass. I formed mine that way specifically for the type of person that reads the headstamp and thinks that is the only thing it can be. "But it said .25-06, why'd it blow up my rifle?"

    Mine is on a 98 Mauser, with a Wilson barrel.

    Robert

  3. #3
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    4,292
    Why would a thick neck blow up the gun?

    If the bolt closes without forcing it, I would think it should be OK.

    Glad you are safe.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    oklahoma
    Posts
    1,728
    Thick necks or overly long cases can raise pressures drastically. I always check to make sure that the loaded case neck is AT LEAST 0.002" less than a fired case neck.

    I had a 223 rem case with a very enlarged primer pocket. I am certain it slipped through and didnt get trimmed. It was way too long and I am sure crimped my bullet as it was chambered.

    If anything slows the bullet from the normal acceleration, pressures can skyrocket. Once you drop below 0.001" radial clearance, the case neck doesn't release the bullet as readily as it should/usually does with properly fit cases.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy Rapidrob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    163
    Don't forget case volume. The commercial brass will hold a lot more than military brass ( thick walls). Take the same load in commercial brass and put it into a military case and you will have problems. Not neck turning the military case and add that to the fire.
    I made a custom Santa Barbra commercial barreled Mauser actioned .25-06 rifle in 1971 and the first thing I was told was to watch my loads using .30-06 military brass ( were were still using .30-06 small arms in the Navy then) and to always neck turn the military brass cases, which I have done.
    It is very easy to get into trouble with the small-bore Wildcat calibers and military brass or Remington brass.
    I hope you were not hurt.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,501
    You maybe jumping to an erroneous conclusion.
    Assuming the brass caused he blow up without any other proof may be a mistake.
    The 25-06, having such a large case for a small bore, is inherently susceptable to pressure excursons if you make a mistake charging a case.
    I have some experience to support this point of view.
    1. I bought one of the first Rem 700 in .25-06 in the early 1970s.
    I have formed and fired a lot of military .30-06 in my rifle. I still have a lot of 100 LC Match cases from that time.
    2.Over the years I bought a lot of once fired brass from indoor shooting ranges. Few factory loaded cases are found to have blown primers but they do occur - most frequently in Remington 6mm and Remington 25-06 brass. I have to conclude that the .25-06 is touchy at even factory load levels much less handloads pushing maxximum load levels.
    3. I have a 6X47 Rem benchrest rifle with a tight neck chamber. I have fired many rounds with .0002 to .0005 neck clearance. I have never blown a primer in the .222 Mag brass.

    I suggest it is easily possible to overload the 25-06 inadvertently and blame other factors. Even the factories blow primers with this round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun31 View Post
    I Used to form 6.5-06 cases from .25-06 or 270 brass. Worked great. Then I tried some militaty 30-06 and I think I had a thick neck-to the point where I blew up the gun. Welded the bolt shut, couldn’t open.

    A tribute to the Remington 700 action! Held all that escaping gas.
    Shotgun
    7
    EDG

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master



    M-Tecs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    6,273
    I'm with EDG on this. To pressure weld the bolt on Rem 700 you are in the 140,000 to 160,000 PSI range if I remember correctly. I am not seeing how you get there even if the neck was tight and long. Some GI cases do have less volume but at best you are talking a 10% pressure increase not doubling or tripling max chamber pressure.

    Every case of this level over pressure has been powder related or short larger caliber cartridge in a smaller caliber chamber. I have personally inspected two 300 BO's fired in a 223 chamber. One bulged the barrel. The other the upper blew the barrel, bolt and carrier.

    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...23-rem-barrel/

    What bullet and powder charge?
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-18-2020 at 10:40 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  8. #8
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    I live in Eastern Florida
    Posts
    33
    Don’t know, but the rifle held it.
    Shotgun

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    209
    I Used to form 6.5-06 cases from .25-06 or 270 brass. Worked great. Then I tried some militaty 30-06 and I think I had a thick neck-to the point where I blew up the gun. Welded the bolt shut, couldn’t open.
    Reloaders are going to have to decide what happens to the neck when necked down; When I neck a 30/06 case up to 6.5 the neck gets longer. When I neck the 30/06 case up to .338" the neck gets shorter. And then there are those that go deep into the neck getting thinner and or thicker.

    SO? If there was such a thing as agreeing and the neck did get longer when necked down there is a possibility the case was too long for the chamber.

    Because I am a case former a builder of bench rest type rifles called to inform me one of his customers called and was not happy. The new owner complained the necks were loose in the chamber meaning there was too much clearance between the neck chamber and neck of the case. And I asked; "How was accuracy?" The builder claimed the new owner was happy with the accuracy. I informed the builder 500 30/06 cases that were the same color, same head stamp and from the same batch. We did, the year was the same and they were stamped Lake City Match. We reduced the clearance from
    .008" to .0025" and accuracy did not improve.

    F. Guffey

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    coastal north carolina
    Posts
    1,086
    any time you neck a case down, the necks get thicker. Check the fired cases to see if a bullet will enter without pressure, and insert the bullet past the shoulder angle, because the case can be thicker at the base of the neck with reformed necked down cases. Federal cases have less volume and can raise pressures. Before you have really dangerous pressures, you will see primer leakage and hard extracting. Getting a 6.5 bullet in a 25 caliber barrel can take things apart, using 4320 powder. If you are shooting 87 grain bullets and load 120 grain, you are going to raise pressures. Thick necks and too long necks will raise pressures, but you should be using 4831 burn rate powders in a 25-06. If you are using fast powders, pressures can spike faster when a neck is thick and long, but there had to be a major error for something to happen without warning signs, like an oversized bullet and fast powder.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    3,435
    Quote Originally Posted by Rapidrob View Post
    Don't forget case volume. The commercial brass will hold a lot more than military brass ( thick walls). Take the same load in commercial brass and put it into a military case and you will have problems. Not neck turning the military case and add that to the fire.
    I made a custom Santa Barbra commercial barreled Mauser actioned .25-06 rifle in 1971 and the first thing I was told was to watch my loads using .30-06 military brass ( were were still using .30-06 small arms in the Navy then) and to always neck turn the military brass cases, which I have done.
    It is very easy to get into trouble with the small-bore Wildcat calibers and military brass or Remington brass.
    I hope you were not hurt.
    Personal evaluation of several hundred .30-06 cases a couple of years ago put paid to this old wives tale. Did not find even one batch of American arsenal brass that averaged any heavier/thicker than commercial. That said, watch out for some foreign makes.

    BTW ditto for .223/5.56 and .308. I still wonder where this myth got started. Some ill-informed magazine gunwriter I suppose.
    Eleutheromaniac

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    209
    I still wonder where this myth got started. Some ill-informed magazine gunwriter I suppose.
    Reloaders; I have been told the military case is heavier because it is thicker. A lot of reloaders talked about it but I had trouble finding a reloader that weighed and or measuring.

    I told them if there was any truth it could only be a half-truth. All of my surplus 30/06 cases had a case head thickness of .200" when measured from the cup above the web to the case head. I compared the surplus cases to Remington 30/06 cases. The Remington case head had a thickness of .260"; that meant nothing to another reloader but if the Remington case head is .060" thicker the case head has to be heavier than a case head with a thickness of .200". It was then I realized I was not talking to a group that could keep up.

    They were weak on case head protrusion but that did not slow me down, I recommended the Remington case with the thick case head for safety. I wasted my time but just in case there was a reloader that was interested I did not want to miss them.

    F. Guffey

  13. #13
    Super Moderator Emeritus
    Preacher Jim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,230
    Just saw this on a Remington where fellow set shoulder back to much forming case. A head seperated and blew out to rear. Damaged bolt locked action. First time i saw this happen to Remington.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    229
    Or is it a case head extrusion into the ejector plunger hole?

    Lots of good info here. Thanks

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    229
    I don't have much experience case forming and haven't needed it so are reduced charges with the new diameter bullet used or full loads? I recall folks using an empty case with bullseye.

    I did play with 6 ppc from 7.62 x 39. Small primer Remington were fine, Lg seemed to be too much.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    3,435
    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    Reloaders; I have been told the military case is heavier because it is thicker. A lot of reloaders talked about it but I had trouble finding a reloader that weighed and or measuring.


    F. Guffey
    Well, now you know one, even if over the Innertubes. Statistical process control (automotive) was my career the last 15 years of my working life. I got bored after retirement. I also did a 1000+ round weight/dimensional study of bulk .22 rimfire.

    I'm over it now.....(I hope).

    I have a penchant for collecting old rifles in obsolete calibers. Some are sloppy black-powder chamberings, but others are wildcats from the interwar years when gunsmiths prayed before the gods of tight chambering. Consequently every case I form gets neck-turned and with those wildcats I do a chamber cast to get accurate dimensions before I ever fire a round in them.

    Phil
    Eleutheromaniac

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    209
    wildcats I do a chamber cast to get accurate dimensions before I ever fire a round in them.
    We have expert chamber casters on all forums that means I know better than to get involved.

    So? Invite me to your next chamber casting job. It is one of those things that can not be done on the Internet.

    F. Guffey

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    South Western NC
    Posts
    2,339

    qty

    At one point in my case reforming and reloading life I made quite a few chamber casts, primarily to learn the neck, shoulder and head diameters of my chambers. Then I noticed that my cast dimensions were all about a thou greater in diameter than the fired cases and I haven't felt a need to do another chamber cast since.

    I'd like to know what - and how - someone managed to reform and set a rimless case shoulder back so far it pulled apart when fired. That was a major screw up!

    Anytime we squeeze a case (or anything else) down it gets longer. Expand a case up and it tends to either stay virtually the same or gets a tad shorter, depending on the degree of diameter change and how the angles of the changing force is applied.

    I'll never understand the logic of using a light load to "fireform" a changed case. If we're ever going to use it for a full power charge why not do it that way the first time?

    I've not seen every military cartridge case ever made but the ones I have seen seem to have about the same internal capacity as an average factory case.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,501
    Brass is elastic so it has some springback when fired. That is what enables it to be easily extracted.


    Quote
    Then I noticed that my cast dimensions were all about a thou greater in diameter than the fired cases and I haven't felt a need to do another chamber cast since.
    EDG

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    209
    I'd like to know what - and how - someone managed to reform and set a rimless case shoulder back so far it pulled apart when fired. That was a major screw up!
    I should be embarrassed, I am the one that said it is impossible to move a shoulder back with a die that has full case body support. I am also the one that fired 8mm57 rounds in my 8mm06 chamber without case head separation. the shoulder of the 8mm57 case is .127" from the shoulder of the 8mm06.

    That was a major screw up!
    A shooter walked into a North Texas gun shop with the intent of suing all involved. When the smith was finished he explained to the shooter he chambered a 308W round in to a 25/06. And then three other smiths started arguing about how long the bullet was when it left the barrel.

    F. Guffey

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check