Case forming warning

[Shotgun31]

I Used to form 6.5-06 cases from .25-06 or 270 brass. Worked great. Then I tried some militaty 30-06 and I think I had a thick neck-to the point where I blew up the gun. Welded the bolt shut, couldn’t open.

A tribute to the Remington 700 action! Held all that escaping gas.
Shotgun

[Mk42gunner]

Each chamber is different, especially wildcats that have been around a long time. It really pays to check and be sure.

For example my particular 6.5-06 happily digests WW .30-06 brass. I formed mine that way specifically for the type of person that reads the headstamp and thinks that is the only thing it can be. "But it said .25-06, why'd it blow up my rifle?"

Mine is on a 98 Mauser, with a Wilson barrel.

Robert

[dverna]

Why would a thick neck blow up the gun?

If the bolt closes without forcing it, I would think it should be OK.

Glad you are safe.

[BK7saum]

Thick necks or overly long cases can raise pressures drastically. I always check to make sure that the loaded case neck is AT LEAST 0.002" less than a fired case neck.

I had a 223 rem case with a very enlarged primer pocket. I am certain it slipped through and didnt get trimmed. It was way too long and I am sure crimped my bullet as it was chambered.

If anything slows the bullet from the normal acceleration, pressures can skyrocket. Once you drop below 0.001" radial clearance, the case neck doesn't release the bullet as readily as it should/usually does with properly fit cases.

[Rapidrob]

Don't forget case volume. The commercial brass will hold a lot more than military brass ( thick walls). Take the same load in commercial brass and put it into a military case and you will have problems. Not neck turning the military case and add that to the fire.
I made a custom Santa Barbra commercial barreled Mauser actioned .25-06 rifle in 1971 and the first thing I was told was to watch my loads using .30-06 military brass ( were were still using .30-06 small arms in the Navy then) and to always neck turn the military brass cases, which I have done.
It is very easy to get into trouble with the small-bore Wildcat calibers and military brass or Remington brass.
I hope you were not hurt.

[EDG]

You maybe jumping to an erroneous conclusion.
Assuming the brass caused he blow up without any other proof may be a mistake.
The 25-06, having such a large case for a small bore, is inherently susceptable to pressure excursons if you make a mistake charging a case.
I have some experience to support this point of view.
1. I bought one of the first Rem 700 in .25-06 in the early 1970s.
I have formed and fired a lot of military .30-06 in my rifle. I still have a lot of 100 LC Match cases from that time.
2.Over the years I bought a lot of once fired brass from indoor shooting ranges. Few factory loaded cases are found to have blown primers but they do occur - most frequently in Remington 6mm and Remington 25-06 brass. I have to conclude that the .25-06 is touchy at even factory load levels much less handloads pushing maxximum load levels.
3. I have a 6X47 Rem benchrest rifle with a tight neck chamber. I have fired many rounds with .0002 to .0005 neck clearance. I have never blown a primer in the .222 Mag brass.

I suggest it is easily possible to overload the 25-06 inadvertently and blame other factors. Even the factories blow primers with this round.

I Used to form 6.5-06 cases from .25-06 or 270 brass. Worked great. Then I tried some militaty 30-06 and I think I had a thick neck-to the point where I blew up the gun. Welded the bolt shut, couldn’t open.

A tribute to the Remington 700 action! Held all that escaping gas.
Shotgun

7

[M-Tecs]

I'm with EDG on this. To pressure weld the bolt on Rem 700 you are in the 140,000 to 160,000 PSI range if I remember correctly. I am not seeing how you get there even if the neck was tight and long. Some GI cases do have less volume but at best you are talking a 10% pressure increase not doubling or tripling max chamber pressure.

Every case of this level over pressure has been powder related or short larger caliber cartridge in a smaller caliber chamber. I have personally inspected two 300 BO's fired in a 223 chamber. One bulged the barrel. The other the upper blew the barrel, bolt and carrier.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...23-rem-barrel/

What bullet and powder charge?

[Shotgun31]

Don’t know, but the rifle held it.
Shotgun

[fguffey]

I Used to form 6.5-06 cases from .25-06 or 270 brass. Worked great. Then I tried some militaty 30-06 and I think I had a thick neck-to the point where I blew up the gun. Welded the bolt shut, couldn’t open.

Reloaders are going to have to decide what happens to the neck when necked down; When I neck a 30/06 case up to 6.5 the neck gets longer. When I neck the 30/06 case up to .338" the neck gets shorter. And then there are those that go deep into the neck getting thinner and or thicker.

SO? If there was such a thing as agreeing and the neck did get longer when necked down there is a possibility the case was too long for the chamber.

Because I am a case former a builder of bench rest type rifles called to inform me one of his customers called and was not happy. The new owner complained the necks were loose in the chamber meaning there was too much clearance between the neck chamber and neck of the case. And I asked; "How was accuracy?" The builder claimed the new owner was happy with the accuracy. I informed the builder 500 30/06 cases that were the same color, same head stamp and from the same batch. We did, the year was the same and they were stamped Lake City Match. We reduced the clearance from
.008" to .0025" and accuracy did not improve.

F. Guffey

[flounderman]

any time you neck a case down, the necks get thicker. Check the fired cases to see if a bullet will enter without pressure, and insert the bullet past the shoulder angle, because the case can be thicker at the base of the neck with reformed necked down cases. Federal cases have less volume and can raise pressures. Before you have really dangerous pressures, you will see primer leakage and hard extracting. Getting a 6.5 bullet in a 25 caliber barrel can take things apart, using 4320 powder. If you are shooting 87 grain bullets and load 120 grain, you are going to raise pressures. Thick necks and too long necks will raise pressures, but you should be using 4831 burn rate powders in a 25-06. If you are using fast powders, pressures can spike faster when a neck is thick and long, but there had to be a major error for something to happen without warning signs, like an oversized bullet and fast powder.

[uscra112]

Don't forget case volume. The commercial brass will hold a lot more than military brass ( thick walls). Take the same load in commercial brass and put it into a military case and you will have problems. Not neck turning the military case and add that to the fire.
I made a custom Santa Barbra commercial barreled Mauser actioned .25-06 rifle in 1971 and the first thing I was told was to watch my loads using .30-06 military brass ( were were still using .30-06 small arms in the Navy then) and to always neck turn the military brass cases, which I have done.
It is very easy to get into trouble with the small-bore Wildcat calibers and military brass or Remington brass.
I hope you were not hurt.

Personal evaluation of several hundred .30-06 cases a couple of years ago put paid to this old wives tale. Did not find even one batch of American arsenal brass that averaged any heavier/thicker than commercial. That said, watch out for some foreign makes.

BTW ditto for .223/5.56 and .308. I still wonder where this myth got started. Some ill-informed magazine gunwriter I suppose.

[fguffey]

I still wonder where this myth got started. Some ill-informed magazine gunwriter I suppose.

Reloaders; I have been told the military case is heavier because it is thicker. A lot of reloaders talked about it but I had trouble finding a reloader that weighed and or measuring.

I told them if there was any truth it could only be a half-truth. All of my surplus 30/06 cases had a case head thickness of .200" when measured from the cup above the web to the case head. I compared the surplus cases to Remington 30/06 cases. The Remington case head had a thickness of .260"; that meant nothing to another reloader but if the Remington case head is .060" thicker the case head has to be heavier than a case head with a thickness of .200". It was then I realized I was not talking to a group that could keep up.

They were weak on case head protrusion but that did not slow me down, I recommended the Remington case with the thick case head for safety. I wasted my time but just in case there was a reloader that was interested I did not want to miss them.

F. Guffey

[Preacher Jim]

Just saw this on a Remington where fellow set shoulder back to much forming case. A head seperated and blew out to rear. Damaged bolt locked action. First time i saw this happen to Remington.

[Martin Luber]

Or is it a case head extrusion into the ejector plunger hole?

Lots of good info here. Thanks

[Martin Luber]

I don't have much experience case forming and haven't needed it so are reduced charges with the new diameter bullet used or full loads? I recall folks using an empty case with bullseye.

I did play with 6 ppc from 7.62 x 39. Small primer Remington were fine, Lg seemed to be too much.

[uscra112]

Reloaders; I have been told the military case is heavier because it is thicker. A lot of reloaders talked about it but I had trouble finding a reloader that weighed and or measuring.


F. Guffey

Well, now you know one, even if over the Innertubes. Statistical process control (automotive) was my career the last 15 years of my working life. I got bored after retirement. I also did a 1000+ round weight/dimensional study of bulk .22 rimfire.

I'm over it now.....(I hope).

I have a penchant for collecting old rifles in obsolete calibers. Some are sloppy black-powder chamberings, but others are wildcats from the interwar years when gunsmiths prayed before the gods of tight chambering. Consequently every case I form gets neck-turned and with those wildcats I do a chamber cast to get accurate dimensions before I ever fire a round in them.

Phil

[fguffey]

wildcats I do a chamber cast to get accurate dimensions before I ever fire a round in them.

We have expert chamber casters on all forums that means I know better than to get involved.

So? Invite me to your next chamber casting job. It is one of those things that can not be done on the Internet.

F. Guffey

[1hole]

At one point in my case reforming and reloading life I made quite a few chamber casts, primarily to learn the neck, shoulder and head diameters of my chambers. Then I noticed that my cast dimensions were all about a thou greater in diameter than the fired cases and I haven't felt a need to do another chamber cast since.

I'd like to know what - and how - someone managed to reform and set a rimless case shoulder back so far it pulled apart when fired. That was a major screw up!

Anytime we squeeze a case (or anything else) down it gets longer. Expand a case up and it tends to either stay virtually the same or gets a tad shorter, depending on the degree of diameter change and how the angles of the changing force is applied.

I'll never understand the logic of using a light load to "fireform" a changed case. If we're ever going to use it for a full power charge why not do it that way the first time?

I've not seen every military cartridge case ever made but the ones I have seen seem to have about the same internal capacity as an average factory case.

[EDG]

Brass is elastic so it has some springback when fired. That is what enables it to be easily extracted.


Quote
Then I noticed that my cast dimensions were all about a thou greater in diameter than the fired cases and I haven't felt a need to do another chamber cast since.

[fguffey]

I'd like to know what - and how - someone managed to reform and set a rimless case shoulder back so far it pulled apart when fired. That was a major screw up!

I should be embarrassed, I am the one that said it is impossible to move a shoulder back with a die that has full case body support. I am also the one that fired 8mm57 rounds in my 8mm06 chamber without case head separation. the shoulder of the 8mm57 case is .127" from the shoulder of the 8mm06.

That was a major screw up!

A shooter walked into a North Texas gun shop with the intent of suing all involved. When the smith was finished he explained to the shooter he chambered a 308W round in to a 25/06. And then three other smiths started arguing about how long the bullet was when it left the barrel.

F. Guffey