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Thread: Case forming warning

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy
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    I Used to form 6.5-06 cases from .25-06 or 270 brass. Worked great. Then I tried some militaty 30-06 and I think I had a thick neck-to the point where I blew up the gun. Welded the bolt shut, couldn’t open.
    I suggest a reloader measure before and again after and again after sizing.
    The 30/06, 270 and the 25/06 case body/including the shoulder are all the same.

    If you necked the 30/06 down count on the neck getting longer. Problems are created when the shoulder becomes part of the neck. I find it an advantage when I need to off set the neck of a generious chamber.

    F. Guffey

  2. #22
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    I should be embarrassed, I am the one that said it is impossible to move a shoulder back with a die that has full case body support. I am also the one that fired 8mm57 rounds in my 8mm06 chamber without case head separation. the shoulder of the 8mm57 case is .127" from the shoulder of the 8mm06.
    F. Guffey
    FWIW - One very good way to achieve excessive shoulder setback is to fireform with a light load. OK with rimmed cases, but with rimless the explosion of the primer drives the case forward, and with a light load there isn't enough pressure to drive it back again.
    Eleutheromaniac

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Thickness of the case head may or may not be significant.
    What is important is the STRENGTH of the case head. The ability of the case head to withstand high pressure is dependent on the hardness of the brass too. It has demonstrated by Bob Hagle in. Handloader Magazine article about 50 years ago that higher Brinnel hardness case heads withstood higher pressures in the 7mm Rem Mag. He cut off the case bodies and measured the hardness of the case heads between the belt and the flash hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    Reloaders; I have been told the military case is heavier because it is thicker. A lot of reloaders talked about it but I had trouble finding a reloader that weighed and or measuring.

    I told them if there was any truth it could only be a half-truth. All of my surplus 30/06 cases had a case head thickness of .200" when measured from the cup above the web to the case head. I compared the surplus cases to Remington 30/06 cases. The Remington case head had a thickness of .260"; that meant nothing to another reloader but if the Remington case head is .060" thicker the case head has to be heavier than a case head with a thickness of .200". It was then I realized I was not talking to a group that could keep up.

    They were weak on case head protrusion but that did not slow me down, I recommended the Remington case with the thick case head for safety. I wasted my time but just in case there was a reloader that was interested I did not want to miss them.

    F. Guffey
    EDG

  4. #24
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    Thickness of the case head may or may not be significant.
    I would agree if you understood why the Remington case with the thick case head is safer than then the thousands of cases I have that are .200" thick.

    F. Guffey

  5. #25
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    A .220 Swift is even worse for pressure spikes necking down .270 brass I used before the .25-06 was a factory load. Makes for sticky bolts if you don't trim the necks.

  6. #26
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    OK with rimmed cases, but with rimless the explosion of the primer drives the case forward, and with a light load there isn't enough pressure to drive it back again.
    "with a light load there is not enough pressure etc." I have very few friends among reloaders because I believe had there been enough pressure to blow the case head back the case would stretch between the case head and case body.

    I form first and then fire form. Problem; component manufacturers do not manufacturer cases for reloaders that know what they are doing. Remington manufactured cylinder brass for wildcat case forming. The cases were 2.650" long with out a shoulder. The last time I checked 20 cases cost $40.00. After the 30/06 case the 280 Remington is the second favorite.

    F. Guffey

  7. #27
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    A light load with the double base powder is just as dangerous as an over load. A light load has a good chance getting flashover from the hot primer igniting the whole load instead of a progressive burn load.
    I have seen two rifles that fragmented from light down loads. (not mine) both shooters ended up in the hospital.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lead pot View Post
    A .220 Swift is even worse for pressure spikes
    Under what conditions? Tight or long neck or just general loading?

    Some interesting reading here.

    http://reloadammo.com/liteload.htm
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-26-2020 at 01:16 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  9. #29
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    Under what conditions? Tight or long neck or just general loading?

    Some interesting reading here.

    http://reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

    There will always be disagreements and I been doing it for many years comments on this subject.
    I don't know what the load combinations were except they were reduced loads. One rifle was a Win 64 in a .30-30 caliber and the other was a Ruger all weather in the .338 Win Mag caliber.
    That's all I can tell about them. The All weather got my attention because I had one back then that had a light narrow thin synthetic stock that weight around 5#. I got it for my Alaskan Kayak trip when I retired down the Yukon River. Light and fairly short ideal for a trip of two months in the bush. But very harsh on the recoil.

  10. #30
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    Not disagreeing at all on the light loading issue. I've personally seen one mostly unexplained blowup and I have read a lot on the subject and I still don't know what to believe. The posted link was for just general info.

    The question I have for you was under what conditions you found the .220 Swift to have pressure spikes?
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  11. #31
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    Double ignition theory- basically look at the powder in the case shaped like an hour glass. The back end or the powder at bolt face blows over the powder setting in the body to shoulder area of the case. Next the second ignition making presser waves going off the scale, reacting with one an other.

    Why?
    How?

    Moister when loading? Type of powder? Load too light?

    Ackley use two powder loads to blow the 6.5 and 7.7 Jap actions, after full charge powder loads wouldn't.

  12. #32
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    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-29-2020 at 04:59 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    Shotgun ? What was the powder and charge of powder?

  14. #34
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    If I recall 25-06 is one of the beast that the double ignition theory based on. 6.5 -06 . .257 compared .264 basically they same beast.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    Not disagreeing at all on the light loading issue. I've personally seen one mostly unexplained blowup and I have read a lot on the subject and I still don't know what to believe. The posted link was for just general info.

    The question I have for you was under what conditions you found the .220 Swift to have pressure spikes?

    Oh Man...now your taking me back to the late 50's
    I had a Mod. 54 ? Winchester with in the .220 and I loved that rifle shot very well and busted the Fox too much for selling the hides but the ears had a $5. bounty on them.
    What I found with the .220 was loading it with a 55 gr bullet over the 40 that was really the factory load the powder had to be reduced accordantly as normal but I found after carrying the rifle muzzle down and bringing it up to shoot I found deep crater primers and they disappeared by first raising the muzzle and lowering it to shoot. Back then I was using 3031 and 4064 as well as Alcan powder.
    Actually the shell is a fairly low pressure cartridge by other .22 calibers that surprised me with the pressure signs like cratered primers and sticking bolts. When that barrel burned out in a short time I build a wildcat in the .22 Varminter what is now the .22-250 and this cartridge has a higher pressure curve than the .220 and I never seen the same issue as with the .220. I think it is the low volume of powder in the large capacity case that caused the pressure spikes I saw.

    Forgot to mention,

    I formed a lot of my cases from the .270 and not turning the necks down showed pressure signs also from the tighter case necks increasing bullet release.
    Last edited by Lead pot; 05-26-2020 at 07:52 PM. Reason: Forgot, :)

  16. #36
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    The Winchesters Mod. 54 was only made in .220 Swift for one year then they switched to the Model 70. Winchester didn't have the barrel steel issues figured out for the Swift in the early years so as you experienced the same barrel life issues everyone else had with the early ones.

    I've burnt out three Swift barrels mostly shooting prairie dogs. As long as case sizing is minimal I have found the Swift to be one of the most forgiving and least spiky high performance cases I have ever loaded.

    I am currently running it's ballistic twin in the 22-250AI. I switched because I have a lot of Tikka 22-250 take off barrels from building match rifles on Tikka 595's. That is the most unforgiving pressure spiky cartridge I have ever had the displeasure of owning. If I ever burn out my 8 or 9 remaining barrels it I will go back to the Swift which I love. The 22-250AI not so much.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  17. #37
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, I liked the .220 but I did have the pressure problem with having to slap the bolt sometimes. I replaced it with the .22 Varminter I build a year before joining up in the service on a Czech VZ 24 98 Mauser action it has shot many rounds through it enough when looking down the muzzle the rifling is barely visible but it still shoots.
    y'all stay safe and hold tight......Kurt

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  18. #38
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    Nice rifle is that a Fajen or a Richard's Micro fit stock? They both had that design. I don't remember if Bishop did.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  19. #39
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    It's a Fajan. I got it from Herters around 1961
    Here is the rest of the wood.
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  20. #40
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    Zebra wood? I was looking at the design from Fajen about dozen years later with a zebra wood tip and grip cap but I went with a Richards Microfit in a thumbhole design. Learned the thumbhole stocks and boltguns are not a match made in heaven. Wished I went with the Fajen like yours.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check