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Thread: Need help with an M1A

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Alloy?

    GC?

    Lube?
    Alloy for the Saeco 315 and Lee 170 gr were COWW. I tried some Lee air cooled at about a 13 BHN hardness. I tried some Lee and all Saeco water dropped, which runs up around 23-25 BHN hardness. I also had some 175 gr bullets from GT bullets. They use a 96-2-2 alloy.

    All three were always gas checked. I tried both .310" and .311" sizing.

    Lube on the 175 gr GT bullets is some kind of softer commercial lube. On my own Saeco and Lee, I tried both Carnauba Red and TAC 1.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    That's pretty grim. If you do have it worked on the M-14/M1a is somewhat of a different cat. Very few people full understand accurization of this platform.
    Grim as in, I'll see a huge improvement, or grim as in I should sell it and start over with another one?

    I'm not sure who will do the work yet. Roland Beaver has a high reputation. I also see Tony Ben does as well, and he sure seems to know them well.

  3. #23
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    Test with know accurate jacketed loads before getting wrapped around the axial about accurizing the rifle. As mentioned a Sierra, Nosler, Hornady or Speer 168 match bullet (also as mentioned the Sierra 165 Game King HPBT will do as well) over 41.5 gr 4895 (either Hodgdon or IMR) will quickly tell if the rifle will shoot accurately.

    Have you read BruceB's dissertation on loading cast bullets for the M1A?
    Larry Gibson

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  4. #24
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    Grim as in with your jacketed loads you should be in the sub 2 MOA.

    Roland did some nice work and some not so much. He closed shop a couple of years ago.

    Not familiar with http://www.tonybenm14.com/. Personal I would look for someone that specializes in Nation Match builds.

    "I was amazed to find 4 shots at 1 3/8", but then a 5th shot went about 8 1/2" low and 2" left!" That a bit extreme but that does indicate the action is moving in the stock.

    If you can what till the August time frame I can do it for you.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-19-2020 at 04:02 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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  5. #25
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    I have a few stocks stashed 14 and M1-A, Birch, Walnut, SA fiber and even a big fat double lug McMillan. You want to try in something else PM and we can figure something out if interested.

  6. #26
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    My bad, I missed your post #19. As M-Tec mentions the results of you shooting do indicate a bedding problem, especially the action movement in the stock. I would take Gtek up on his offer to try another stock.

    Couple questions about the stock? You say it's "plastic"....is it injection moulded plastic or is it composite? When you close the trigger guard to lock the action in the stock does it snap in easily or does it take some force?
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 05-19-2020 at 06:15 PM.
    Larry Gibson

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    My bad, I missed your post #19. As M-Tec mentions the results of you shooting do indicate a bedding problem, especially the action movement in the stock. I would take Gtek up on his offer to try another stock.

    Couple questions about the stock? You say it's "plastic"....is it injection moulded plastic or is it composite? When you close the trigger guard to lock the action in the stock does it snap in easily or does it take some force?
    The original stock was some kind of plastic. I'm sure Springfield called it a composite, but it is a very flimsy stock. The action snaps in too easy in that stock, and there is no draw pressure at the ferrule. I shot with this stock at first, but then bought a big red birch stock. This stock fits better, and is much more stout. You can feel the trigger guard catch the action when it is about 3/4 closed. By Tony Ben's video's this is too loose. To momentarily rectify it, I had shimed under the action, and this both increased the draw from the trigger guard, and also increased the stock's draw at the front ferrule. Unfortunately it seems there is too much room in the stock in the steel liner. I can move the action around by hand. It takes almost no force to insert or remove the action, it will fall out on its own.

    As a double check, I may try a box of target specific bullets, but those Sierra's are usually very good. I will for sure see about picking up some factory ammo just to be sure. Most of the loads (including cast) I've tried will shoot 2" at the very worst in my other 308 Winchester, a Henry single shot, although that does have a scope on it. I'm sure the peep sights are not quite as good, but I know I can shoot them well. I have read BruceB's posts, especially his long thread.

    Gtek, I may take you up on that offer. I'm not scared to have my gun worked on, and I do like the looks of the birch stock I have now.

  8. #28
    In addition to testing it with a variety of factory loaded 147/150 grain M80 jacketed loads would buy a couple different boxes of 168 grain match loads. Many M1a's will be finicky about magazines so be sure to test using more than one magazine. I own ten Springfield M1a's with my last being a 6.5 Creedmoor Loaded. It required some trigger work and bedding out of the box. M1a's are known for bedding issues, especially newer rifles and high round count. My primary shooters that have been in the stable for a while have been rebedded at least once. Have most models from Basic, Standard, Loaded, National and Super Match. I am not a fan of the 16" and 18" short barrels as the 1:11 twist six groove rifling is too slow in my opinion for short barrels and my 18" SOCOM was quickly swapped to a 1:10 twist 5R barrel.

    I suggest chasing accuracy issues with factory jacketed ammo in the 150 to 168 grain range. If you add a scope be sure of where your mount comes from. There are already Chinese knock offs of the Springfield Gen4 mount for the air soft market being sold as genuine Springfield. I like Sadlack mounts. Except for my 6.5 Loaded I try not to buy Springfields made after Y2K (2000 AD) as quality of parts has dropped along with the assembly line especially since they have to make California, New York and free state compliant versions of every rifle. President 2000 rifles will have more USGI parts and likely better workmanship. My National and Supers are 1980s built. I recently made the decision to swap to Bula built M14s and only buying older Springfields when find a deal. Am about to order a pair of Bula 6.5 NM builds. Keep a good written journal of every change you make and it's effect on accuracy. When get it shooting MOA with factory ammo then work on your cast boolit handloads. If you discover an issue and need to send it in for warranty do not tell them have been shooting handloads or cast. 10% of the M1a's I see come out of the box have issues I feel warrant return for warranty work. Be methodical and patient with ammo Springfield assumes will be used before wandering off into experimenting.
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  9. #29
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    Buy a box of Federal Gold Medal Match ammunition (FGMM). 168 grain HPBT. It should at least shoot moa at 100 yds with that ammo. No experience with the SOCOM but my two Supermatches will eat FGMM with glee.

    Jon Wolfe did my last rebarrel. You might try him; http://wolfefirearms.com/services/

  10. #30
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    I got it out again with some factory ammo. I got some 150 grain Remington, as well 7.62x51 PPU brand. The only so called match ammo the store had was Hornady 168 grain. Unfortunately all three again shot about 5" groups. I brought it in to 50 yards, and a couple I did manage close to 2", but that was it. Again I had one flier a good 6"-8" out of a group, no idea what is causing that. One thing I've noticed, and it did this my last time out as well, the groups seem very vertically spread. Many times I'll get two close together, then another two close together, and so on. In the past I've tried both sand bags, and my favorite is an MTM rest. Today I tried with a Caldwell rest.

    Mine is the scout squad, not the SOCOM. I've never heard of magazines effecting accuracy before, but I have tried multiple. I've tried with the original 10 shot, as well as multiple 20 shot mags from Check-Mate. I've even tried single loading ammo without a magazine. I have tried it with a scope. This model came with a scope mount on it. The scope did not make any difference at all.

    Months ago I had called Springfield about the accuracy problems. I was asked if it would shoot 4" groups at 100 yards. I said sometimes, but usually not. The guy said, well it would probably be considered in spec then.

    At this point, I don't think there is anything else to do, except send it off to be bedded, and gas system unitized.

  11. #31
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    Appears to be a bedding issue. Try another stock.
    Larry Gibson

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  12. #32
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    I would have it bedded ( youll be surprised how tight it is after) The unitized gas system is also worth doing. Also have a good trigger job done, 4 1/2 lbs is abut the minimum but getting the clean crisp consistent release will make a big difference. With the bedding job send the handgaurd also and have it fit also, one that bears on receiver and gas system both can cause problems.

    Theres a trick to removing the bedded action from the stock. Sliding the gas system forward allows the action to be lifted straight up and out, it doesn't rock out and damage the bedding. I also have found that when action is removed replaced it may take a few rounds to fully settle back in.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Appears to be a bedding issue. Try another stock.
    Trying another stock is likely the safe answer. At this point I feel willing to go all in with the bedding. I'm willing to accept the liability, I don't see the need to ever remove the stock if this works. My big question is, has anyone ever seen a rifle such as this, shooting around 5"-6" at 100, come down to sub 2" after the work?

    As for the trigger, that was one good surprise with this rifle. Out of the box mine was more than acceptable. Very little creep, almost imperceptible, and it breaks at 4 3/4 pounds. Nothing needs to be done there.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    At this point I feel willing to go all in with the bedding. I'm willing to accept the liability, I don't see the need to ever remove the stock if this works. My big question is, has anyone ever seen a rifle such as this, shooting around 5"-6" at 100, come down to sub 2" after the work?
    I've never seen one that shot that poorly period. That being said most of the ones I have done are NM rifles that needed bedding and or a new barrel. I did a dozen rack grade unfired M-14's with the standard barrels and 4 or 5 shot well enough to be competitive. The others shot well enough for the new shooters on the team. I never shot them before bedding and NM'ing them.

    It was very common when the bedding had issues for them to "chirp" in the stock. They would shoot good groups but when the stock "chirped" it would jump POI 5 or 6 MOA.

    It sound like you are thinking of doing a glue in bedding? The M1A/M-14 platform is not a good choice for that. Properly bedded you don't want to remove the action unless needed but infrequent removal doesn't hurt anything.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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  15. #35
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    I don't know what you mean by glue in bedding. I've read about various methods of lugs, or pillars or even a bolt, none of which I am good enough to do myself. Once I get around to it and find a qualified and available gunsmith, I will have it done as they recommend.

    My gun definitely makes noise. I wouldn't call it a chirp, I would call it more of a tick. I had no idea the stocks needed to fit so tight. As you saw in the picture I posted, mine seems to do as you say. I managed 4 good shots, and then the next moved a good 8". That was with spacers to tighten the stock. With no spacers, my action doesn't rattle, but it doesn't take much to move it around. I've noticed depending on how tight I hold it can move the action in the stock. I'll often get that tick, as the rear of the action settles in.

  16. #36
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    I don't think there is an official name but when I went to All Guard Match rifle course they referred to the sound the action makes when it moves as "chirping". Glue in bedding used to be common with the benchrest crowd. They would bed the action without a release agent on the action so it was glued in permanently.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  17. #37
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    at my range the target is a skillet sized steel gong at 550 yards. smk or hornady 168 match bullet over 41.5 imr 4895 hits it all day long. try that load and if you're at moa or so, it's the gun.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogmower View Post
    at my range the target is a skillet sized steel gong at 550 yards. smk or hornady 168 match bullet over 41.5 imr 4895 hits it all day long. try that load and if you're at moa or so, it's the gun.
    I think you missed most of the thread. I tried a 165 gr Sierra with 41 gr 4895. It put 4 shots into about 1 3/8", then threw the 5th over 8" away.

    I'm working on other guns now, this M1A will go off to be worked on soon enough.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check