ISE Hates plumbing

[Petrol & Powder]

Ed K- assuming that attorney spent the entire work day (8 hours) on that letter and that $4500 fee was just for his time, that's an hourly rate of $562.50/hour. I don't know any attorney worth that.
Now, if that was a flat fee for entire matter, and not just the culmination of an hourly rate; that's a horse of a different color.

[Winger Ed.]

Ed K- assuming that attorney spent the entire work day (8 hours) on that letter and that $4500 fee was just for his time, that's an hourly rate of $562.50/hour. I don't know any attorney worth that.
Now, if that was a flat fee for entire matter, and not just the culmination of an hourly rate; that's a horse of a different color.

Many of those letters are sort of like a 'fill in the blank' form sort of deal in their trade.
Here, $500 a hour is pretty standard for court room time for basic cases.
If you really need a lot of justice, and can afford it- it tends to cost more.

A lot of their high pay rate is a return on their investment for a ga-zillion dollar education, a few years 'earning their spurs',
and that is what the market will bear for the job they do.

[Petrol & Powder]

Many of those letters are sort of like a 'fill in the blank' form sort of deal in their trade.
Here, $500 a hour is pretty standard for court room time for basic cases.
If you really need a lot of justice, and can afford it- it tends to cost more.

A lot of their high pay rate is a return on their investment for a ga-zillion dollar education, a few years 'earning their spurs',
and that is what the market will bear for the job they do.

So are you saying that attorney spent 8 hours "filling in the blanks" on some boiler plate form and charged his client $562.50 per hour ?
Or did he only spend 30 minutes filling in the blanks and his hourly fee is really $9000/hour ?

The reality is the $150-$250 hourly rate isn't just for the attorney's time. That fee is for the wages of the support staff, the insurance and benefits of the support staff, the rent, the malpractice insurance, the utilities, the office supplies.....and what ever is left over is the attorney's income. That being said - if you're paying $500+ / hour to an attorney - you need to find another attorney.
However, if you're paying a flat fee for a case and the attorney spends 10 hours or 60 hours and it's the same flat fee - that's not an hourly rate.

So getting back to Ed K's $4500 for a letter; that was likely a $4500 fee for some job, not the total of an hourly rate to write a letter that took less than a day to complete. Let's be honest here.

[Winger Ed.]

So getting back to Ed K's $4500 for a letter; that was likely a $4500 fee for some job, not the total of an hourly rate to write a letter that took less than a day to complete.

You are correct sir, it was more of a fee, not a hourly rate to tell his legal secretary to make a few changes to
a form letter, or one he'd sent to someone else in the past.

[MT Gianni]

I bought a barely used natural gas stove off of Craigslist to replace the 70's oil burner in my house a few years ago. It's one of those stoves that looks like a traditional wood stove, but is natural gas, complete with ceramic logs.

I didn't have natural gas to my house, but the utility company said they would run it from the street and set a meter if I had an appliance installed. Gas company said I had to have a licensed contractor do the install.

Well, I set the stove and installed the chimney, then hired a local contractor to run the pipe from the stove to the exterior. He came in, ran 3' of pipe, inspected my chimney, and left a tag on it. $450. The utility company came and ran the line, set the meter, and verified the contractor's info on the tag he left.

If it were me, I would install a couple of Rennai vented space heaters on each floor. They run about $1800 for the larger size and $1500 for the smaller. Home Despot can order them in or Amazon. They are vent through the wall, 80%+ efficient and a good value. The only problem most have is the thermostat is floor level so you have to adjust the temperature to comfort rather than to 68F or 70F.
I have one in my basement that will heat the house for 48 hours when plugged into an emergency battery/120 V supply that sells for $80 or so. They are a good idea for the car when travelling, get the one with a compressor too, and the Rennai take so little power it will run the thermostat and fan if the power goes out.

[Petrol & Powder]

You are correct sir, it was more of a fee, not a hourly rate to tell his legal secretary to make a few changes to
a form letter, or one he'd sent to someone else in the past.

You paid a flat fee of $4500 for someone to edit a letter?
I've got this bridge that connects Manhattan to Brooklyn and I think you're just the guy I need to sell it to.

[Ed K]

I wrote "I emailed a draft letter to my attorney". It was not a form.

I then wrote "to which a dose of legalese was added." There was no claim that a paralegal/secretary did the work. To support the latter point the hours billed included conferring with two other attorneys in the practice (intellectual property and patent specialists).

Did I feel it was expensive? Oh yeah. However I didn't claim I was ripped off as I closed with "So I'm not saying any of these guys are bad guys - generally speaking we need them." I can't do what the attorneys did for me but I can install the mini-split to offset their bill! I guess that was the point of my post - do what you can do so at the end of the day there are still a few dollars left in your pocket.

[Petrol & Powder]

Ed K, I think it would be fair to say the attorney did a lot more for you than add a little "legalese" to your draft. It sounds like you needed to protect intellectual property, , they may have researched some patents, maybe researched some federal law, filed some materials to protect you and your work, they maybe even still be on retainer for additional work on that matter.

My point is, that $4500 was for a lot more than just editing a draft you sent him.

[MrWolf]

Wow. The mini splits have gone up that much? I paid $600 each maybe 10 - 13 years ago.

I just looked some up. Looks like around $700 shipped and may not have to pay sales tax. They are very easy to install. If I can do it you can too.

[fcvan]

Different states, different rules. Fortunately, I grew up in the trades. Dad, Grand Dad, and oldest brother were all cement finishers. Best friend down the street, his Dad was a carpenter. Neighbor across the street was an electrician, another a painter, another a welder/fabricator/ and a hell of an engine builder. The plumber was the next street over, but all of Dad's friends worked on each other's projects and I was allowed to watch and ask questions if I wasn't a pest.

As far as complicated plumbing, I got put on a pipe fitting crew when I worked in the oil fields, for one day. The lead crew boss knew I had a construction back ground, so when he needed a guy, he asked for me. Crash course learning but what a wealth of knowledge. That, and my crew often worked sites where the pipe fitters were and so I could watch and learn at times.

I had to re-wire a house that literally started out as a cabin that was added on to. I rewired it and had a retired Air Force electrician look my work over. He was a co-worker and he good old Virginia southern boy. 'That will pass County Code, but that will never pass Air Force standards.' When I cleaned it up and called for an inspection a couple of guys came out. Lead inspector said something like, 'Wow, that's good work. Who's your contractor, I need a new guy.' 'Me, I don't need a license for my own project.' 'True, I was just hoping to find another good electrician.' I gave him the name of a co-worker, another LEO, who had his license and worked the night shift so he could do day jobs on the side.

I read the comment about the guy who got hosed by an attorney. Thank god my attorney was a family friend who had also seen my work product from when I was assigned to the DA's office as a case by case investigator. I called to make an appointment for consultation and asked 'How would you like some free money?' Injury accident, drunk driver, open and shut case, with a reluctant insurance company. I showed up with my documents, forms, and legal exhibits. He looked at it briefly and asked 'What do you need me for?' I explained that I didn't have a Bar Card and I need a mouth piece. 'You did all the work, time and charges instead of %30 sound okay? Office rate is X, courtroom appearances is X times 2.' A year later of back and forth they settled, attorney got $2000 instead of $35000. Good thing I took some law classes along the way.

Some things require licenses and such, some require a lot of knowledge, but as has been said in previous posts, also the knowledge of when to hire the guy/gal with the knowledge and experience. I'll hire my oldest brother, he's now a General Contractor, but still concentrates on cement work. If I need HVAC work, I have a neighbor who does commercial HVAC with a family owned company. He also likes to cast and reload with me, and loves my wife's cooking. It never hurts to know the guy who knows the city and county guys on a first name basis.

[Winger Ed.]

I rewired it and had a retired Air Force electrician look my work over. He was a co-worker and he good old Virginia southern boy. 'That will pass County Code, but that will never pass Air Force standards.' When I cleaned it up and called for an inspection a couple of guys came out. .

In Virginia, I had a buddy who added a room on his house, and did the wiring himself.
He knew the inspector would be picky, so he read up on all the specs. & such, just to be sure he did everything right and to code.
When he felt it was all perfect, he called for an inspection.

A inspector came out, looked around, asked him if he had a licensed contractor do the job.
Fearing the worst, He told him, "Yes sir".
Inspector then said, "No you didn't".
"How can you tell"?
The inspector told him, "The ones around here don't do that good of work".

[Ed K]

My point is, that $4500 was for a lot more than just editing a draft you sent him.

Yes and no. A one-plus page draft was sent and a two-minus page finished product was forwarded to the other party's attorney. There was no patent search or patent development performed. The essence of the effort was the attorneys conferring with one another as to whether a trade secret or patent would be the best approach given the particulars of the situation. The primary attorney billed 6 hours @ $450; secondary attorneys 2 hours each. That was the actual bill - there is no balance left as retainer.

We seem to be focused off topic here. I never claimed the attorneys ripped me off. Only that it was a lot of money. What's more, I can't do what they did. Note that the labor alone (+ markup/overhead, etc) on the contractors bid for a single-day effort to install a mini split was more money than the attorney fees. Therefore I can install the mini-split and pay the attorney bill with the savings. That was the point of the post.

[David2011]

Our house has two AC systems; one for the bedrooms and study and another for the living area. I want the vent to the study put on the living area system. It’s a small room so system capacities are not an issue. An HVAC company recently quoted me almost $600 to move the flexible ducting from one plenum to the other; right beside each other, no additional ducting required. I asked for their hourly rate. It’s $175/hr. Over double what I charge to work on computers or firearms. I’m not charging enough.