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Thread: Gew 1888/05/35 8mm Mauser loads

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Mine shoots way much better than I can.
    Are the x6 Malcolm (HiLux) scopes doable on the '88's?
    Reckon you'd need to modify the bolt handle.

  2. #22
    Boolit Mold
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    The Turk 88/35 barrels were not Turk made , they are Czech 93 barrels turned down by the Turks to fit the Gew-88 . There were never any German military .318 barrels , only .321 and .323 . There are CZ made barrels found on SA rifles with .317 - bores [ groove ] . The Gew-88 is not a weak action and does not need to be kept to 30/40 Krag loads , other than for the caution needed for 130 year old rifles . They shot millions of rounds of German S ammo in them .

  3. #23
    Boolit Bub kenblacksmith's Avatar
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    I was hoping someone would chime in on the “S” stamp. Should be good for Spitzer ammo if I’m not mistaken.


    Quote Originally Posted by tmanbuckhunter View Post
    I have a 91 Danzig that was turkish property at some point, but not re-barreled, with all of the S modifications. Slugs out at .321 and is scary accurate with cast boolits and 2400. The gun shop I bought it from had it marked "not for firing" and I'm glad they did because the price was great. There is really nothing unsafe about shooting these rifles, even rifles with a .318 groove diameter. Just need to fit the projectile to the bore and throat regardless if it's a j-word or a cast bullet.

  4. #24
    Boolit Mold
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    The S stamp just means the rifle was checked for function with S ammo and cleared to fire it . There was no change to anything . It also does not mean any spitzer ammo , just German S ammo . Just remember that if the rifle was rebarrelled by someone other than the Germans the S does not mean anything any more .

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    It bugs me a bit when someone calls a Commision rifle a “Mauser”. I’ve read that Mauser was upset when the 1888 rifle was chosen instead for Germany’s military. Under the Turkish contract, Mauser could have been required to build the ‘88 Commision rifle for the Ottomans- but Turkey stayed with the 1888/89 and later 1893 Mausers(7.65mm). Would I like to have a ‘88 Commision rifle? Absolutely- especially one of the German sporters like the Haenel.
    Mauser had a full work load with the Turks and other at the time . He would not have been required to build the Gew-88 no more than he would have been a Krag . The contract only applied to his designs and production updates .

  6. #26
    Boolit Master




    bruce drake's Avatar
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    someone mentioned they like to use 30-40 Krag loads for their commission but I follow the principle of using 30-30 Win/32 Winchester Special Load data (depending on bullet weight) for my 88/05 Commission Rifle. since its only for use at 100-200 yards at the gun-club, its more than enough to have a good day at the range with.

    Bruce
    I Cast my Boolits, Therefore I am Happy.
    Bona Fide member of the Jeff Brown Hunt Club

  7. #27
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    Winston10- didnt the contract stipulate that if Germany adopted a new rifle during the term- that Turkey could demand that the order be completed with the new rifle? Maybe I've misunderstood the American Rifleman articles that I read long ago. Thanks for the info.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by winston10 View Post
    There were never any German military .318 barrels , only .321 and .323 . There are CZ made barrels found on SA rifles with .317 - bores [ groove ] . The Gew-88 is not a weak action and does not need to be kept to 30/40 Krag loads , other than for the caution needed for 130 year old rifles . They shot millions of rounds of German S ammo in them .
    "The original Infantriegewehr 88 barrel had a land diameter of .311" (7.9mm), nominal groove diameter of .319" (8.1mm) and used a form of rifling copied from the French Lebel consisting of four grooves with a depth of 0.1mm. The Geschols 88 had a diameter of .319" (8.1mm) and upon firing it was, in effect, "squeezed" into the bore...."

    "Extensive testing showed that the best combination of results were achieved by increasing the depth of the rifling to give a groove diameter of 8.15mm (0.321")......."

    From: German Gew 88 "Commission" Rifle, pages 68 & 70 respectively.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by winston10 View Post
    The S stamp just means the rifle was checked for function with S ammo and cleared to fire it . There was no change to anything . It also does not mean any spitzer ammo , just German S ammo . Just remember that if the rifle was rebarrelled by someone other than the Germans the S does not mean anything any more .
    "Before the new Patrone S could be used it was necessary to ream out the neck of the chamber to allow the new cartridge to fit and lengthening the lead (forcing cone) of the barrel to give the larger diameter projectile more time/distance to resize itself. Barrels purpose built for the Patrone S had the same nominal .311 inch (7.9mm) land diameter as the Infanteriegewehr 88 and early Gewehre 98 but deeper rifling was used resulting in a groove diameter of .324" (8.23mm."

    "....the neck portion of the chamber was reamed out, the lead lengthened and the rear sight modified."

    "The modified rifle was designated the Infanteriegewehr 88 abeandert fur S-Patrone, or simply the Infantriegewehr 88/S - and can be identified by an "S" stamped on the top of the chamber."

    Same source, pages 100 & 102 respectively.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by winston10 View Post
    Mauser had a full work load with the Turks and other at the time . He would not have been required to build the Gew-88 no more than he would have been a Krag . The contract only applied to his designs and production updates .
    "Paul Mauser was busy with the huge Turkish contract of 1887 while the Model 88 was being developed and was not consulted in the project." ........... "Also, no Commission Model 88 rifles and carbines were produced at Oberndorf. Mauser could have been forced to produce the Model 88 for Turkey through a provision in the Turkish contract. Turkey, however, did not exercise the privilege, and this was a relief to Mauser because he did not want to pay royalty to his greatest rival (Austrian Arms Co.) for producing a rifle having the Mannlicher box magazine."

    From: Mauser Bolt Rifles, Ludwig Olson, Third Edition, 1976, F. Brownell & Son, Publishers, Montezuma, Iowa 501711

  11. #31
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager View Post
    "The original Infantriegewehr 88 barrel had a land diameter of .311" (7.9mm), nominal groove diameter of .319" (8.1mm) and used a form of rifling copied from the French Lebel consisting of four grooves with a depth of 0.1mm. The Geschols 88 had a diameter of .319" (8.1mm) and upon firing it was, in effect, "squeezed" into the bore...."

    "Extensive testing showed that the best combination of results were achieved by increasing the depth of the rifling to give a groove diameter of 8.15mm (0.321")......."

    From: German Gew 88 "Commission" Rifle, pages 68 & 70 respectively.
    Sorry but that is incorrect . You will never find a rifle made like that . It is very clear what the bore sizes were if you read original German testing document and have about 100 real rifles to look at . The first bore size was .314-.321 , all of my very early rifles with original barrels have that size . Do to rapid wear they made the rifling deeper in early 1890 by .003 by making the bore hole smaller at .311 - .321 , as found on all rifles made after that . In 1896 1/2 they went with the Z bore at .311 - .323 , and that is what all Z marked rifles measure . The original bullet was .3188 dia and was never " squeezed " into the .3208 groove bore . All military rifles of that time period used bore riding bullets to keep the pressures down with the long round nose bullets . That book is a major source of misinformation . But that will happen when you can not read German , have none of the German documents and have no rifles to look at .

  12. #32
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager View Post
    "Before the new Patrone S could be used it was necessary to ream out the neck of the chamber to allow the new cartridge to fit and lengthening the lead (forcing cone) of the barrel to give the larger diameter projectile more time/distance to resize itself. Barrels purpose built for the Patrone S had the same nominal .311 inch (7.9mm) land diameter as the Infanteriegewehr 88 and early Gewehre 98 but deeper rifling was used resulting in a groove diameter of .324" (8.23mm."

    "....the neck portion of the chamber was reamed out, the lead lengthened and the rear sight modified."

    "The modified rifle was designated the Infanteriegewehr 88 abeandert fur S-Patrone, or simply the Infantriegewehr 88/S - and can be identified by an "S" stamped on the top of the chamber."

    Same source, pages 100 & 102 respectively.
    Again that is all wrong . None of my S and non S mark rifles have any difference in the neck dia . Since the S round was only .002 larger in dia than the older P-88 round and most military rifles have much more clearance than that there was no need to ream it out . The German document say to check the rifle and to stamp the S in the test cartridge cleared . Only to send the rifle back to be reamed if it did not clear . That does not mean they reamed all rifles . The S round was designed to be fired in the Gew-88 with it's .321 barrel , that is why it is a .321 dia bullet . There was no need to resize the bullet . There was NO reason to lengthen the lead as it was already 3x longer for the P-88 bullet than what the short 154 S bullet needed . That is just a stupid statement with no bearing in reality . He does not even know what a Gew-88/ S is . The S on the chamber does not mean it is a 88/S . The Gew-88/s is marked with a crown S on the side of the buttstock , as clearly stated in the Germans armorer's manual . He would know that if he had read the manual . As stated in the earlier post , that book is a major mistake .

  13. #33
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager View Post
    "Paul Mauser was busy with the huge Turkish contract of 1887 while the Model 88 was being developed and was not consulted in the project." ........... "Also, no Commission Model 88 rifles and carbines were produced at Oberndorf. Mauser could have been forced to produce the Model 88 for Turkey through a provision in the Turkish contract. Turkey, however, did not exercise the privilege, and this was a relief to Mauser because he did not want to pay royalty to his greatest rival (Austrian Arms Co.) for producing a rifle having the Mannlicher box magazine."

    From: Mauser Bolt Rifles, Ludwig Olson, Third Edition, 1976, F. Brownell & Son, Publishers, Montezuma, Iowa 501711
    Again another poor source of Gew-88 info . Try reading the original Mauser text on the subject .

  14. #34
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    Well, Sir, I think I met you a few years ago on another forum, and you were just as obtuse. I think you should cite your references by name, date of publication, page numbers, and publisher. I recall at that prior time you cited measurements you and a friend had taken on "hundreds of rifles", but there is nothing there to substantiate your claim but your say-so. I think I'd have to choose references by Paul Scarlata and F. Brownell over your unpublished data most any day.

    How do you know that I don't read German? How do you know that I have no rifles?

    In Post #22 you stated, "There were never any German military .318 barrels...." and yet, in Post #31 you admit to a .311" bore. In Post #32 you cite a German test document that says the rifles were sent back to have the chambers reamed if the S cartridge did not clear. This is, by your own data "something" being done; but in error, as all rifles current at that time were returned for modification.

    As for the Turks' option to modify Mauser's production to suit their needs, it is not just Brownell that referenced this information, but it can be found in other sources as well. Perhaps you'll share your "original Mauser text on the subject" with us? Just copy it right off onto a post, as I did with my information. I'm sure those of us who don't read German can verify it with Google Translate.

    I have no intention of continuing this debate/argument to the point where I get a "time out" by a Moderator. Frankly, your first 3 posts were all strikes, and I think you should consider yourself as being "out". Go home.I don't believe that you'll find one here.

  15. #35
    Boolit Buddy Eddie1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winston10 View Post
    Sorry but that is incorrect . You will never find a rifle made like that . It is very clear what the bore sizes were if you read original German testing document and have about 100 real rifles to look at . The first bore size was .314-.321 , all of my very early rifles with original barrels have that size . Do to rapid wear they made the rifling deeper in early 1890 by .003 by making the bore hole smaller at .311 - .321 , as found on all rifles made after that . In 1896 1/2 they went with the Z bore at .311 - .323 , and that is what all Z marked rifles measure . The original bullet was .3188 dia and was never " squeezed " into the .3208 groove bore . All military rifles of that time period used bore riding bullets to keep the pressures down with the long round nose bullets . That book is a major source of misinformation . But that will happen when you can not read German , have none of the German documents and have no rifles to look at .
    You are 110% correct about bore dimensions. Like Low Number 1903's this is another hotly contested topic.

  16. #36
    Boolit Bub Emmagee303's Avatar
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    junkbug:

    I have an 88/05 that measures .322" groove diameter at the muzzle and .3215 at the throat. I have AAC 5774 powder and ordered the following cast boolits:
    .325" 250 gr. NOE #326378 RNGC
    .323" 170 grain RNFPBB
    .324" 190 grain GC SAECO RN

    Also:
    .322" 190 grain JACKETED HPBT

    I am looking for load data for the AAC 5774 poder with the above boolits but am having a difficult time locating charts that list this combination. I could use some help please...

    Many thanks!
    Terry

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check