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Thread: 8x58RD with slower propellants

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy pcmacd's Avatar
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    8x58RD with slower propellants

    I understand that using reduced loads of typical rifle propellants for cast bullet (CB) loads can result in weird burn propagation, pressure spikes and barrel ringing.

    What I don't understand is where the danger zone starts.

    For example, here are some QuickLoad estimates for the 8x58RD, 70 grains water, LEE C329-209-1R sized to 0.325 at 20 BNH (Magma Blue lube), 3.075" COL:

    propellant load QL Pmax QL Vel % Fill
    -----------(grn)---(psi)-----(fps)

    AA2200 26 14,884 1,679 43.7

    N135 32 16,305 1,844 60.2

    AA3100 44 15,345 1,863 79.3

    H1000 45 14,537 1,738 77.6


    The AA2200 does seem a bit iffy at 44% fill,

    --->> but do not the rest seem to be reasonable loads, above?

    AA1680 (not shown) at around 18,000 psi is 40%. That seems ifffy, too.


    How about these more conventional loads:

    propellant load QL Pmax QL Vel % Fill
    -----------(grn)---(psi)-----(fps)

    W231 11 18,617 1,336 24.8%

    AA2400 18 18,163 1,680 32.3%

    W296 22 17,987 1,788 34.9%

    XMP5744
    (AA5744) 21.9 17,761 1,776 39%


    I know Unique is often used, but I have an enormous amount of propellant and would prefer to work with this I have in stock listed here.

    I also have available aa#5, Longshot, aa#7, aa#9, H4227, and a boatload of rifle propellants betwixt AA1680 and H1000.

    Oh, and, std. pistol primers for pistol prop. except 296, std rifle for rifle prop. except H1000 and perhaps AA3100?

    Your thoughts?
    Last edited by pcmacd; 05-08-2020 at 05:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy pcmacd's Avatar
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    Hey guys.

    Thanks for not piping in if you have nothing to add. I'm serious here.

    This is a complex question.

    Ibe awaiting a response from Dutchman, who I PMd.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    I've not used any of the slower powders you have listed, nor do I have any interest in using them in that application. Where the "danger zone" starts isn't something I'm interested in delving into, either.

    One caution. You're working with a rifle that's well over 100 years old and that has a rather low threshold of strength and safety overall. Those are not factors that I'd consider favorable for experimentation.

    I've never used "Quick Load" so I won't comment about your numbers.

    I also try very hard to avoid "complex questions".

    I'm fond of Unique for cast rifle loads.

    Historical and Experimental Investigations of the Pressure Characteristics of the 8x58 Rimmed Danish Cartridge
    http://dutchman.rebooty.com/GB8x58RD.html


    Dutch

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy pcmacd's Avatar
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    Well, the results are in.

    I did some fire lapping on my 8x58RD yesterday.

    I used Hornady 3235 bullets and NECO lapping kit.

    All rounds were charged with 18 grains of H110.

    Quickload predicted a pressure of 11,554 PSI and a muzzle velocity of 1604 ft/sec.

    I used the standard 70 grains of water for QL, but everything else was spot on.

    The "all today" column shows the results of 220 to 1200 grit velocities as captured by my LabRadar.

    The velocities were not so different among the different grits to be significant, so I have shown both the 200 grit and the rest averaged in.

    This velocity was much more than expected. I have tried all manner of tricks to reconcile the Quickload data. No joy.

    The velocity is what it is. I am sure glad I was really conservative on my load!

    Not a great load, I expect! FYI Only! The "all today" numbers are for 28 rounds. My Labradar only caught about half of the shots, but that is another issue.

    Oh, and? My LabRadar is being stoopid. I tossed all of the 6000+FPS captures, only including reasonable stuff in my "All Today" summary.

    I KNOW those silly, extreme velocities were an error on LabRadar's part, as the recoil was not significantly different than the others for those clocked at stupid, impossible velocities.

    Selected results? Yes. According to what is reasonable.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by pcmacd; 05-27-2020 at 11:57 PM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy pcmacd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    I've not used any of the slower powders you have listed, nor do I have any interest in using them in that application. Where the "danger zone" starts isn't something I'm interested in delving into, either.

    One caution. You're working with a rifle that's well over 100 years old and that has a rather low threshold of strength and safety overall. Those are not factors that I'd consider favorable for experimentation.

    I've never used "Quick Load" so I won't comment about your numbers.

    I also try very hard to avoid "complex questions".

    I'm fond of Unique for cast rifle loads.

    Historical and Experimental Investigations of the Pressure Characteristics of the 8x58 Rimmed Danish Cartridge
    http://dutchman.rebooty.com/GB8x58RD.html


    Dutch
    Thank you, sir, for your most candid response.

    I'd rather see "no opinion" than a guess.

    mac

  6. #6
    Boolit Man
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    I have had excellent results with 23 gr 5744 under the NOE 258 gr RN cast hard ( Linotype or water dropped WW) and sized .324. My groups with this load are as good as I can see with a 17A globe sight up front and a receiver sight in back. I have a new Lee .329-209-2R mold to try as well and will focus 5744 starting about where you have listed above and working up.

  7. #7
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    pcmacd

    "The velocities were not so different among the different grits to be significant, so I have shown both the 200 grit and the rest averaged in.

    This velocity was much more than expected. I have tried all manner of tricks to reconcile the Quickload data. No joy."


    Understand that Quickload is nothing more than a computer model. I think we have seen with computer models telling as where hurricanes will land or travel and the recent COVD-19 computer models have shown us just how accurate they can be. I measure pressures and velocities along with other internal and external ballistics and have compared measured results to Quickloads guestimated results. Sometimes the Quickload guestimate is pretty close and sometimes it's not. I've found Quickloads accuracy to be about as close a the old Powley slide rule guestimates. Frankly, I put more faith in manual data where the loads have actually been tested. Unfortunately when developing loads, especially reduced cast bullet loads with a lot of powders there is no such actual pressure tested data. Quickload may be all you have to guess by. Just remember that with any computer model program the more data ithat is inputted and the more correct/precise that dat is the closer the output will be to reality......sometimes.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy pcmacd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    pcmacd

    "The velocities were not so different among the different grits to be significant, so I have shown both the 200 grit and the rest averaged in.

    This velocity was much more than expected. I have tried all manner of tricks to reconcile the Quickload data. No joy."


    Understand that Quickload is nothing more than a computer model. I think we have seen with computer models telling as where hurricanes will land or travel and the recent COVD-19 computer models have shown us just how accurate they can be. I measure pressures and velocities along with other internal and external ballistics and have compared measured results to Quickloads guestimated results. Sometimes the Quickload guestimate is pretty close and sometimes it's not. I've found Quickloads accuracy to be about as close a the old Powley slide rule guestimates. Frankly, I put more faith in manual data where the loads have actually been tested. Unfortunately when developing loads, especially reduced cast bullet loads with a lot of powders there is no such actual pressure tested data. Quickload may be all you have to guess by. Just remember that with any computer model program the more data ithat is inputted and the more correct/precise that dat is the closer the output will be to reality......sometimes.
    Well, sure. OTOH, I've been able to get reasonable results with QL for the dozen or more other cartridges I have used it on, but not this one.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    A reduced load of a slow powder can set up a “chuffing” effect, an oscillating wave reflecting back and forth between the projectile and the breech. 50 years ago it was called the “secondary explosive effect” and investigated in the gun press, SEE for short. I have seen it in a friend’s 6.5 x 55 , blew the primer pocket of a case. 55 years ago I was in the artillery, and it was known that putting a 155 mm powder charge in backwards could blow the breechblock out, due to faulty ignition. The primer is a separate cartridge in the breechblock, the powder bag has a black powder charge in its base to disperse and ignite the smokeless grains and the projo is rammed hard into the barrel. It all has to work right in proper sequence. Any hesitation in the progress up the barrel causes a reflection wave, which bangs back and forth increasing pressures at reflecting locations.
    I wouldn’t risk the slow powder reduced charges.
    "You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest which extends from mountains to ocean, and legions, now quiet, will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary; it puts us in the wrong; it is fatal." Robert Toombs, Democrat of Georgia, warning of the results of the imminent attack of the Confederacy upon Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor, 1861

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy pcmacd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26Charlie View Post
    A reduced load of a slow powder can set up a “chuffing” effect, an oscillating wave reflecting back and forth between the projectile and the breech. 50 years ago it was called the “secondary explosive effect” and investigated in the gun press, SEE for short. I have seen it in a friend’s 6.5 x 55 , blew the primer pocket of a case. 55 years ago I was in the artillery, and it was known that putting a 155 mm powder charge in backwards could blow the breechblock out, due to faulty ignition. The primer is a separate cartridge in the breechblock, the powder bag has a black powder charge in its base to disperse and ignite the smokeless grains and the projo is rammed hard into the barrel. It all has to work right in proper sequence. Any hesitation in the progress up the barrel causes a reflection wave, which bangs back and forth increasing pressures at reflecting locations.
    I wouldn’t risk the slow powder reduced charges.
    Of course. I am not RECOMMENDING the QuickLoad loads further below, I am throwing them out for comment.

    OTOH, a 75% full load of H1000 is not likely to be an issue, not that I intend to try it.

    Further poking around on the net I found loads approximating or greater than most of the QuickLoad computations listed below for this cartridge. A2200, A3100 and H1000 are possible exceptions here; I would contact their tech support before trying any of those loads.

    The 8x58RD is w/in a grain of the water capacity of the 30-06, so cast bullet loads for that cartridge w/in a ~20KPSI pressure range ought to be safe in the 8x58RD.

    See below, from Lyman Cast Bullet h/b 3d ed:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Lyman even lists, above, H4895 @29 grains for the 30-06 at a pressure a bit above my comfort level @around 49% case capacity. I am surprised this propellant can be safely downloaded to this extent. Whodathunkit?

    I've also seen significantly reduced A3100 loads for other bottleneck cartridges, which was a surprise.

    I'd just throw in the towel and use Unique as the Dutchman recommends, but damn! I have over 100 pounds of propellant and just don't want to buy any more unless it is essential. There ya go.

    I've likely 15 or 20 years left on the clock, and whatever is left in my magazine is going to be fertilizer; I doubt I'll even get thru what I already have. Too many past bargains with surplus propellant from that guy Jeff Bartlett in Kentucky.

    It was curious that the Sierra support line had no clue about this cartridge. First time I ever called when they were not just full up w/data. Phil referred me to that crazy loading outlined in COTW, which by now I expect everbody here knows is truly dangerous, and I warned him off. "Take a pencil and strike that page, sir!"

    Thanks to every one of your for this continuing, interesting exchange.
    Last edited by pcmacd; 05-29-2020 at 11:04 PM.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I would suggest you forget the old gun for a while and do some load development in a 30-06 in a strong action,like maybe a Rem 700.....so if something odd happens ,the gun will take it........One thing Ive done a bit of experimentation with using a filler in the powder,mixed in,to bulk up the load density.......I use wheat bran ,as being light and cheap.........The reason I advocate vegetable fillers ,is they are of a cellular nature ,and can compress near infinitely ,unlike the synthetics like dacron fibre ,which have a solid volume as a plug.........IMHO ,if any load is producing low SD velocity figures ,I think you can be reasonably certain nothing nasty is about to happen......(the mixed in filler works well with blackpowder ,and many loaders use it.)

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy pcmacd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    I would suggest you forget the old gun for a while and do some load development in a 30-06 in a strong action,like maybe a Rem 700.....so if something odd happens ,the gun will take it........One thing Ive done a bit of experimentation with using a filler in the powder,mixed in,to bulk up the load density.......I use wheat bran ,as being light and cheap.........The reason I advocate vegetable fillers ,is they are of a cellular nature ,and can compress near infinitely ,unlike the synthetics like dacron fibre ,which have a solid volume as a plug.........IMHO ,if any load is producing low SD velocity figures ,I think you can be reasonably certain nothing nasty is about to happen......(the mixed in filler works well with blackpowder ,and many loaders use it.)
    And what would be the point of that?

    Sir, this is not a discussion of 30-06, nor of any other caliber than the 8x58RD.

    I have DOZENS of conventional rifles and handguns. I chose to reload for this weapon because I always wanted, since a pre-teen, a Rolling Block.

    I LIKE MY OLD GUN!!!!

    IT IS A VERITABLE HOOT!!!!


    'Nuf Said?
    Last edited by pcmacd; 05-31-2020 at 10:50 PM.

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