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Thread: Why Better as cast

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    Why Better as cast

    So I’ve been working on some subsonic loads for my 300 blackout and I have run into a number of silly things I don’t understand. One thing I learned was that after loading 5 rounds without sizing they grouped .6” at 50 yards vs the standard 1.5-2” I’ve been getting. All I did was just run these upside down to swage on the gas check without touching the driving bands, Then seated them like the rest. These are 206 grn 311299 gas checked falling at 9bhn, sized to .310 being fired out of a 16” barrel over 11.5 grains of 300blk. The barrel slugs at .3081”.

    My first thought was that perhaps they were getting swaged down because the expander wasn’t expanding the mouth enough. I made a dummy round from a .310 sized boolit and pulled it, still measures .310. What gives? I ordered a .312 sized and an expander plug from NOE just so I can quit wasting time and fix both issues of undersized boolits or excessive neck tension. Also oddly with the .310 sized projectiles the velocities were not very consistent, with the as cast rounds all 5 were 6 FPS apart +-. Anyone understand an explanation for this. I will add that I sure as hell don’t anneal the necks and the brass is from converted lake city .223 brass.
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  2. #2
    Boolit Master 44Blam's Avatar
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    If your barrel slugs at .3081, .310 is plenty big enough. Maybe you are getting higher pressures with the "As Cast"?

    There are a lot of things to think about - you want the pressure to burn clean, then have the boolit up almost against the lands, don't exceed the RPM for a given BHN of alloy and size. Maybe you need a little more pressure or faster or slower RPM or maybe crimp?
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  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    Sounds like sizing is swaging them out of balance slightly.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazoo View Post
    Sounds like sizing is swaging them out of balance slightly.
    I guess that could be true, maybe I should just be happy that I found what seems to work and quit over analyzing it lol.
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    Boolit Master Dapaki's Avatar
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    .6" at 50 yards? Less work? I would take that without questioning the 'why', personally. Congrats on your happy accident.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy DAVIDMAGNUM's Avatar
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    Are the bullets being sized to .310" or are you using a .310" sizing die? With the three calibers that I cast the Lyman sizing dies ALL produce bullets 1 or 2 thousandths too small. I can only guess that they are regulated for Lyman #2 alloy that has some spring-back after running through the die. I only cast soft alloys from 20-1 to 40-1. Your bullets at a BHN of 9 are soft.
    For example with 40-1 alloy my Lyman die stamped .432" produces .4305" bullets.
    Just a thought. This had me scratching my head at first.

  7. #7
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    Coo
    Erect I am sizing these boolits to .310
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  8. #8
    The Brass Man Four-Sixty's Avatar
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    As you size them, you soften the lead reducing its hardness. I wonder if you size them, then heat treat, if they would shoot better? Unless you're powder coating. What is your lube method?
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sutherpride59 View Post
    SNIP...

    All I did was just run these upside down to swage on the gas check without touching the driving bands, Then seated them like the rest. These are 206 grn 311299 gas checked falling at 9bhn
    One possibility is that you bent some, or all of your boolits during GC swaging.
    a long skinny boolit is prone to being bend, and a SOFT long skinny boolit, even more so.
    Was this done in a lubsizer? specifically a Lyman 450?
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  10. #10
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    Another thing to consider;

    The 311299 is a long bullet with a relatively short bearing surface. If seating, crimping, sizing and lubing in the same operation, as with a lubrasizer, you may be sizing the bullets crooked. As in in, the sized bearing surface is not parallel to the axis of the bullet. Easy enough to do if the nose punch is not aligned with the axis of the sizing die.
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    I read an artical many tears ago in a Lyman or Ideal catalog. They flat said, paraphrasing from memory " sizing ruins bullets as there is no way to get them in a sizing die with the degree of precision that they MUST have to fall from a mold. You will invariable shave a bit off one side, or bend them as the top punch may not line up correctly. American shooters have convinced themselves that bullets must be sized, so we make moulds over sized and sell sizing equipment". Gas checks will always shoot better as they seat straighter and have less drag. good luck with that

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    If you can chamber 312 and bore is 308, your 310 doesn't fill that huge throat. Plus, if using the crimp groove, almost nothing supporting the front drive bands. Throat in BO is ~ 1/2 the neck length.
    Whatever!

  13. #13
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    Was it one group or is it repeatable? I would be ecstatic with a consistent .6" load at 50 yards.
    Don Verna


  14. #14
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    (5 rounds without sizing they grouped .6” at 50 yards vs the standard 1.5-2” I’ve been getting.)

    Rule #1 IF it works better and is safe do it.

    How big are the unsized bullets? sounds like your barrel likes bigger bullets.

    My shooting partner tried larger bullets in his CC 9mm and got much better groups.

    Accuracy depends on so many different things boolit size in relation to hardness in relation to powder in relation to the powder charge in relation to the coating or lube you use. the temperature even comes into effect!

    normally we slug or pound cast or chamber cast our barrels and go .001 to .003 over that (normally .002, less with harder lead, more with softer).

    You could get a bigger sizing die to make seating the GC easier.

    BUT "subsonic loads for my 300 blackout " subsonic loads don't need GC.

    My 247 FN GC are tac drivers subsonic over 700X.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    It wouldn't matter to me what size they are if they shoot good and don't lead and you get to skip sizing it all adds up to a great combination.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master

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    As cast may be just enough larger to 1) increase neck tension to improve ignition of the powder charge. 2) it may be giving a better seal and grip in the rifling. 3) it is probably a "truer" bullet than sized.

    The more steps you perform the more to go wrong. While holding .001 on each operation isnt a problem. It is cumulative in the end results. Seating gas check sizing, lubing ( even done together) leaves for up to .003 variation. Another is your gas checks may be a little squarer done upside down and separately.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    One possibility is that you bent some, or all of your boolits during GC swaging.
    a long skinny boolit is prone to being bend, and a SOFT long skinny boolit, even more so.
    Was this done in a lubsizer? specifically a Lyman 450?
    This is the first thing that comes to my mind. You rarely see it mentioned, but without care, a Lyman 450 can quickly become a bullet mangling machine. Either bent bullets, or bullets sized crooked are very common.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    Well these were heat treated just for uniformities sake, then tested with a lee tester 3 days later. They may be about 9.5-10 bhn by now. For lube I only lubed one lube ring and fill it with Ed’s red.

    Quote Originally Posted by Four-Sixty View Post
    As you size them, you soften the lead reducing its hardness. I wonder if you size them, then heat treat, if they would shoot better? Unless you're powder coating. What is your lube method?
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  19. #19
    Boolit Master

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    Star sized nose down

    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    One possibility is that you bent some, or all of your boolits during GC swaging.
    a long skinny boolit is prone to being bend, and a SOFT long skinny boolit, even more so.
    Was this done in a lubsizer? specifically a Lyman 450?
    90% professional 10% mature

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Fat bullets with traditional lube shoot better as long as you can chamber them! That has always been my experience in every caliber
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check