Hunting accuracy?

[djohns28]

I wont accept a 1.5" group from a scoped rifle. Flat wont do it. I can hold a 3" 100 yard group with my iron sight Marlin 44 magnum, but rested and scoped it will shoot an inch or better. Its more accurate than I am. I don't take it anywhere that I may need to make more than a 100 yard shot simply because of trajectory. I cant tell 100 yards from 120 yards and there is 3 inches of drop between them. Misjudging distance and my inability to see could mean I'm off 6" or more with that rifle. I don't trust myself with it. I can hold a 3" group at 500 yards with my 243. I run a 200 yard zero with it. It's 1.5" high at 100 and 1.5" low at 265 yards. Its literally point and click. I recently busted a coyote at 380 yards across a hay field with that rifle. I shoot 22LR silhouette matches which are off hand with an open sight Henry and with a scoped Ruger American Rimfire Target rifle. I have shot 37 out of 40 with it off hand. I can hold a 1" group at 50 yards with the Henry off hand. Bench rested the Ruger holds 3/8 or better at 50.

I guess the point is, I know what i can and can't do despite what the rifle will do. I have confidence in the rifles that I use, and I use them a lot. Most hunters don't put the time in to practice the little things like breathing and trigger discipline that can and will ultimately lead to misses and bad shots, or even bad shot placement. Old habits surface under stress and we revert to our muscle memory and our training. The first pig I shot out of a deer stand I made a perfect shot behind the shoulder. The problem was that on a pig, that's a gut shot. My range has a big steel pig set up at 100 yards and started practicing with my 22 aiming for the ear to retrain myself to shoot for the ear. My wife and I both shoot a 243. I have preached and preached for her to shoot deer in the neck so they fall right there. We were in the stand together after she shot a buck and another one came trotting out like he owned the place. took us completely off guard. I drew down on him real fast and instinctively put the cross hairs behind the shoulder and squeezed the trigger. Made a perfect shot, but the deer ran. I made my wife time 45 minutes and not let me out of the stand to make sure it had sufficient time to lay down so I wouldn't jump it. in my mind I can still see the deer in the scope and I knew i made a good shot at the time but it ate me alive. i was so worried that i made a bad shot. It happened so fast that if I didn't have time to think about the shot, I just made the shot. Things like that happen in the woods and you don't always have the perfect set up. But, knowing my rifle and knowing the load got me that deer. There is no substitute for trigger time and if i would have had my Marlin 44 I likely would have missed.

[Tripplebeards]

Just about every one of my hunting rifle loads shoot less then half MOA with jacked ammo off the bench at 100 yards before I enter the woods with them. The reason being is when I flinch, wiggle, ect. I’m not going to miss my “mark” by much. Starting out with a 3” plus group holding perfectly steady off a rest at 100 yards IMO is going to end up a 6 MOA grouping or even larger free handing at the same distance.

I’m learning that MOA for cast is pushing the envelope at 100 yards. I have a Ruger 77/44 that will do it pretty regular with two different loads. The other two rifles I’ve tested with cast best groups are both 1.1” to 1.25” with a couple of loads. My goal is to still find a MOA load with cast at 100 yards. That way when I know I missed it was my fault and not my load or the rifle.

Here’s my first try with cast yesterday at 100 yards with a marlin 336 chambered in 35 Remington. I would hunt with both loads as they are close enough to MOA that I’m sure I’d hit my mark with a steady aim in the deer woods. I’m sure I’ll still try a couple more powders to see if I can do better. I probably shot around 50 boolits or more through it yesterday. Most that cant shoot minute of pie plate probably aren’t as active as most of us are with our hobby and only shoot a few rounds once every couple years and never see a deer to miss anyways.



I’m always trying t found a load that a three shot group will all go in the same hole looking like a cloverleaf. I do this with every firearm and pistol I own. It’s not needed in the deer woods but it sure helps with learning how to shoot more a accurate and consistent imo.

[Winger Ed.]

A lot of 'deer hunters' seldom do any shooting during the off season! And as a consequence are no better shots than the guy your mentioned..

^^This.^^

These are the guys that have had the same a half a box of ammo in the closet of 10 years,
but if they can't put one shot hole through another--- the rifle is bad, or it needs more gadgets.

When I run into them, I tell them shooting is just like riding a motorcycle or flying an airplane.
The more you do it, the better you'll get.

[Tripplebeards]

...and they are normally the ones that also post that their rifle barrel is defective because it’s shooting 12 inch plus groups at 100 yards... When they’re loosely free handing it and usually with an optic that’s not sighted in. I learned not to believe everything I read along time ago.

[bmortell]

deer probably a 4inch square at a distance covering most shots you could get with a crude front rest and no back rest, assuming that's how your hunting spot is. once your down under 2 inches id rather make boolits more effective than more accurate unless im hunting squirrels or something tiny. if people can hunt deer with arrows you don't need a 1 inch group you just want it.

feel like hunting large game theres a point of diminishing returns on accuracy where as well call effectiveness probably isn't close to a soft cap yet. for example im not gonna slow down a 2k fps 30-06 cast load to 1600 just because I can get a 1 inch group instead of a 1.5" I think that's counter productive. where as I would give up some effectiveness to go from 4" to 2.5" for example

[megasupermagnum]

I take heart and lung shots, and my maximum range is that which I can consistently place shots inside of 4" on the shooting range. This gives me plenty of leeway, as field conditions make things a lot tougher than the range. I do not have an accuracy standard for scoped hunting rifles, as I do not hunt with rifles. I would ideally like to see under 3" at 200 yards, under 2" would make me even happier. I don't see the point of taking a scoped rifle without having 300 yard capability, which I'm presuming is something in the range of 7mm-08, 30-06, or similar. A scoped 44 magnum carbine would be a different matter, I would feel just fine with that doing 2" at 100 yards. Most of my hunting is with a shotgun. I am just fine if my shotgun with slugs is only capable of 60 yards, same with handguns. It has been many years since I've had the opportunity for a 50+ yard shot.

[rtyler8140]

I'll be honest, I was the guy that would shoot my rifle/muzzleloader a few times before season started to make sure they were still sighted in. Fortunately, I started bow hunting only a year after I started rifle hunting. Having a bow allowed me to practice shooting as much as I wanted, unlike with a rifle. While I would say that they are very different beasts, shooting a bow taught me to learn and stay within my limits. When shooting my hunting rifle/muzzleloader, I always practice shooting in the same position I would when hunting. I do not practice off hand shots, and consequently will not take one. To me there is just as much discipline in knowing when to shoot as there is in how to shoot. For what its worth, I use a bench to sight in my rifles to sub 1.5" @ 50 yards. Where I hunt 90% of my shot opportunities are sub 50 yards, the other 10% I don't even consider pulling the trigger. Now that I have started casting and reloading, I have and will be doing a lot more shooting. Maybe the other 10% will be in my comfort zone this year.

[richhodg66]

I'll be honest, I was the guy that would shoot my rifle/muzzleloader a few times before season started to make sure they were still sighted in. Fortunately, I started bow hunting only a year after I started rifle hunting. Having a bow allowed me to practice shooting as much as I wanted, unlike with a rifle. While I would say that they are very different beasts, shooting a bow taught me to learn and stay within my limits. When shooting my hunting rifle/muzzleloader, I always practice shooting in the same position I would when hunting. I do not practice off hand shots, and consequently will not take one. To me there is just as much discipline in knowing when to shoot as there is in how to shoot. For what its worth, I use a bench to sight in my rifles to sub 1.5" @ 50 yards. Where I hunt 90% of my shot opportunities are sub 50 yards, the other 10% I don't even consider pulling the trigger. Now that I have started casting and reloading, I have and will be doing a lot more shooting. Maybe the other 10% will be in my comfort zone this year.

If more guys subscribed to this, then this thread would be a moot point. I learned most of my deer hunting skills bowhunting as well, so I tend to think of hunting as scouting, planning an ambush, being there when the deer shows up and killing it at close range before it has any idea it's in danger. Be a hunter, not a shooter. Always bothers me when I hear of guys who shoot at 400 yards, or who take head shots. Leave the trick shooting for paper targets and respect the game.

[Idaho45guy]

Always bothers me when I hear of guys who shoot at 400 yards, or who take head shots. Leave the trick shooting for paper targets and respect the game.

My brother shot this whitetail at 616 yards last season. He's addicted to the long-range stuff. His rifle is a Christiansen Arms Ridgeline in 6.5 PRC.

Attachment 261740

This is his practice group at 600 yards; just under 4"...

Attachment 261741

I don't like it or condone it. My furthest shot on an animal was about 300 yards on an antelope. My last whitetail was at 99 yards. Of course, I was using a $400 Ruger M77 with an awful trigger compared to him using a $2000 rifle with a carbon fiber barrel.

Still, hard to accurately gauge wind in the woods, and anything can happen at that distance.

[Tripplebeards]

I shot a Pronghorn once at a hair over a 1000 yards. Took one shot to miss and gauge the distance. The second shot landed perfectly behind the front shoulder. Probably luck. It was a perfectly placed broadside double lung shot. I Used a 300 Rum with 125 grain ballistic tips loaded at 3950 FPS. I practiced out to 500 yards before I went with smaller then fist sized groups. It’s the only animal I felt I never hunted. This was a little over 20 years ago. I’ve only taken One or two big game animal over a 100 yards since. It was last year with my pops 35 remington 7600 at about a 130 yards and the year before was about the same distance. Otherwise my average shot is about 25/40 yards out of my tree stand. If I had it to do over again I would have stalked that pronghorn so I felt like I actually hunted and earned it.


It was my first and only hunting trip to hunt Pronghorn in Wyoming and I had shot about enough practice rounds through my RUM over the summer to burn out the barrel getting ready for it. My gun was shooting smaller groups than the 600 yard target above. There just was no challenge in shooting an animal that far imo other than hitting my mark. At that distance the animal has no idea what’s going on and just either stands there or trots 20 yards and stands again until you finally land your shot. My rangefinder wouldn’t even read to the distance I shot it at the time. I had to keep scanning my rangefinder from a various rocks on the ground to the next one till I was close enough that I could scan the dead pronghorn while walking up to it.

[Larry Gibson]

Again, the topic of this thread brings out the difference between accuracy compared to precision and the difference between shooting game and hunting game. IMO whether or not the game is "hunted" or just "shot" makes a big difference and greatly influences the "hunting accuracy" needed.

In many places and many styles of "hunting", such as shooting from a stand/blind or when seeking long range shots the precision of the rifle/load (group size) along with your ability to hit the kill zone of the game animal dictate the "hunting accuracy" required. For me, using Texas deer "hunting" as an example, sitting in a stand/blind with the deer coming to a feeder is shooting not hunting. Shooting driven game is not hunting but shooting. A "hunter" who can shoot accurately and has a zeroed weapon capable of 3 - 4 moa precision can kill deer all day long.

Spotting a game animal at long distance and not stalking closer is still shooting, not hunting. The precision of the rifle/load comes into play. Idaho45guy's last post is an example of just such. However, a rifle/load capable of sub moa is usually best but a 1 - 1.5 moa capable rifle/load will still hit the kill zone of deer at a long distance if the shooter is capable. Riding out in a vehicle and setting up to cover a field or clear cut is not hunting but shooting most often. Still there can be a fine line between just shooting and not hunting such as how you got to the place to make the shot may still make this "hunting".....such as packing in (foot or by animal), hunting in high mountains or a spot and long stalk.

"Hunting" is perceived by many as stalking as close to the game as possible as in the bow or handgun hunting examples often given. Perhaps, in hunting's purist form this may be closest. As such again, if the "hunter" can shoot [not just pull a trigger but utilize marksmanship fundamentals with appropriate weaponscraft to hit an intended target], then any firearm capable of 3 - 4 moa the "hunter" can kill deer all day long.

If we remember that 95+ % of all deer are killed under 200 yards and of that 80% are killed on the short side of 100 yards then we see a rifle capable of extreme precision is not needed for "hunting accuracy". The reality is.... it depends on how well the "hunter" can shoot [place the shot into the vital area of the deer at the maximum range the "hunter" will shoot] that dictates level of "accuracy" [precision] of the rifle needed.

[MT Gianni]

There is the theory that practice makes perfect, it doesn't. Perfect practice makes perfect. That happens when you know what to correct from your mistakes. How many of you in these housebound times, take an EMPTY gun and follow the wall seams across and down the wall? How many do it with a handgun as well? If yo do not ingrain muscle memory in to your habits you cannot expect them to be there. How many hold a gun, empty again on a target across the room and see how long they can hold it there? We will all wobble but can you wobble in a concentric circle and only pull on the trigger as you approach?
At 65 I can say of the last 10 big game animals I shot three were offhand. None of those was further than 175 yards. In my 30's and 40's almost all of my shooting was offhand. Different areas, different terrain all played a part. In those days I could not remember ever shooting anything from a stand, it was all scout and sneak in National Forest or BLM.
Point is if you want to get better at shooting off a bench shoot off a bench. If you want to improve offhand it only happens with practicing it.

[bmortell]

Problem is the shooters ability and practice vs how they do in the actual situation they see a deer and all this is very blurry and unquantifiable. Other than very broad sayings like practice is good theres no good way to talk about a persons accuracy while actually hunting. So i figured the only way to talk about it with any scientific usefullness is to make it more about the guns end and assume people arent taking bad shots

[megasupermagnum]

Problem is the shooters ability and practice vs how they do in the actual situation they see a deer and all this is very blurry and unquantifiable. Other than very broad sayings like practice is good theres no good way to talk about a persons accuracy while actually hunting. So i figured the only way to talk about it with any scientific usefullness is to make it more about the guns end and assume people arent taking bad shots

There isn't really much more you can do. Out here is shotgun zone, and the usual bar talk involves "If only we could use rifles". You could give the worlds most accurate rifle to some of these people, and a milk jug at 100 yards would be reasonably safe. Yet every year these same people manage to kill deer with minimal problems. Whitetail are likely the easiest animals we have to hunt in most of the USA. I don't know why people make it such a big deal.

How about sheep or goats? Now that would be an interesting discussion of wary animals, long shots, and high shot angles.

[Idaho45guy]

Whitetail are likely the easiest animals we have to hunt in most of the USA. I don't know why people make it such a big deal.

How about sheep or goats? Now that would be an interesting discussion of wary animals, long shots, and high shot angles.

You obviously have never hunted in the West.

I've hunted in both Iowa and Idaho. It is vastly different. It is also vastly different in different parts of Idaho than others. It's not like the Midwest where it's basically the same terrain and ecosystem for hundreds of miles and deer are mostly concentrated in small areas and are plentiful. The biggest challenge in Iowa to deer hunting was "knowing someone" and getting permission to hunt on their land. Once I got permission, did a day of scouting and figuring out where the deer were and what their habits were, it was easy to find a spot to sit and wait for them to come out.

Out here, it's a bit more challenging. Instead of a couple of hundred acres of habitat to concentrate on, you have a couple of million. Now, there are parts of Idaho that are farmland, and you can set up near the edge of a field or near a water source and wait for the deer to come in. There are also areas where you have to hike miles in rugged terrain to get to where the deer are.

This is where I deer hunted last Fall. There is no parking the truck and walking 100 yards to your stand...

Attachment 261778

Here is a list of the states with the least amount of deer per square mile. Note they are all west of the Mississippi...

https://www.realtree.com/brow-tines-...er-populations

Iowa has 6.4 deer per square mile. Minnesota has 9.4.

Idaho has 2.4.

So, deer hunting is quite a bit more challenging out here than it is in your area. FYI. Quite a few hunters from the Midwest come out here and fail miserably trying to hunt "easy" whitetail or elk. They really have no idea what it's like out here.

[Idaho45guy]

Sorry if my previous post sounded snarky. I just have hunted in both types of areas and am aware of the stark contrasts.

[robg]

have to bench your rifle to check it .once you get neat groups you know any poor shooting is the nut behind the butt.pointless shooting offhand before you check the hardware.

[GhostHawk]

I grew up in a shotgun + slug only hunting zone.

I pretty quickly learned that if I could not put 5 shots into a paper plate at 50 yards and cover them with a standard coffee cup they were not going hunting with me. I used a lot of Federal slugs, still have some.

The 2 single biggest things that impacted my success were.

A Get out of sight, get hunkered down below a weed or bush so only your eyes and hat show.

B If they are coming my way, let them come. Closer is better.

There is a LOT of air around a moving deer. they "bounce" and if you don't time the bounce and the lead right you miss.
I never lost a deer that I shot right, ie up close and hidden.

I am no expert, and I have not killed that many, but more than I could count on one hand. My wall boasts a nice mount of a big 10 pt buck that was less than 2 feet from me when I pulled the trigger. He was jumping over the deadfall and bush I was hiding behind. He did not go far. I knew that buck from the time he was just a little forkhorn. I bow hunted his home range. We always saw each other up close during shotgun season. Until the year he did not see me at all.

Shoot enough before the season to have confidence in your gun and your load.
Wait for the best shot you can get.
And then don't be in a hurry to follow it up. Give it 15 minutes to lay down, stiffen up, and bleed out. Hardest 15 min of your life but its worth it.

[PNW_Steve]

Muddydogs you must have some secrets learned to get your hunting rifles shooting a half inch. I've messed with many rifles over my lifetime, 40 years ago trying to get some good name brand rifles to shoot into 1 1/2 inch groups was nigh on impossible ( which is still plenty good for hunting). Even the model 70 many times was doing good to get under 2 inches. But today things have really changed. Bullets/ boolits are better, many more powder choices, bought ammo is better plus the rifles, even the low dollar rifles shoot lights out. I know 1/2 inch groups are confidence builders but geez!

Under my father's instruction, I was shooting SUB-MOA groups from the bench before I got to hunt. All of our hunting rifles have been SUB-MOA shooters. We both have bought a few that we couldn't coax adequate performance from. We didn't keep or hunt them.

Best group out of my model 70 - 9/16" - 5 shots. @ 200. yards. To be fair, I did bed the action, free float the barrel and reworked the trigger.

With a little attention you can get respectable groups out of our typical hunting rifles.

[white eagle]

hunt, shoot, what ever
if you know what your bullet, arrow, stone, or spear is going
before you step out the door the better you are going to be prepared
for your trip to what ever you want to call it