Hunting accuracy?

[Idaho45guy]

I was on another forum where some guy posted that with his new .30-30 Marlin with open sights, he couldn't get more than 75% of his shots, out of 25, on a paper plate at 50 yards shooting off-hand. He wanted to know if it was him or the gun.

I scolded him for not first bench resting the rifle to determine what it's accuracy potential was and that he was wasting ammo shooting a new rifle offhand at a paper plate if he was doing anything other than function testing it.

I told him that if he couldn't do better than 75% of his offhand shots on a paper plate at 50 yards, then he had no business taking that rifle into the woods to try and kill a deer with it.

I reasoned that a paper plate is about the same size as the vitals of a deer. If you can't get 100% of your shots in that area at 50 yards, or even 100 yards, then you are likely going to just wound an animal and cause suffering.

I grew up with the acceptable standard of a hunting rifle being 1.5 MOA at 100 yards using a rest. All of my hunting rifles will do 1 MOA or better. I come from a family of marksmen, so maybe my standards are too high.

Do you have an accuracy standard for hunting rifles? What is it?

[Hickory]

A lot of 'deer hunters' seldom do any shooting during the off season! And as a consequence are no better shots than the guy your mentioned.
I will confess that I am not a very good offhand shot unless I practice a lot, even then I need something to lean or rest my rifle on to get a good shot.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I'm in my late 60's and practice offhand shooting 40-60 shots on tin cans almost every day. Practice is essential every day. Cast boolits (non gas checked) are a perfect platform being very cheap to reload.

Without the practice, I like every other shooter would lose that accuracy edge.

[Muddydogs]

If a scoped rifle isn't shooting under 1/2 inch at 100 yards or iron sight rifle shooting the same at 50 yards from a good rest I keep messing with it until it is. Ya my iron sight rifle standard is a little low but I just can't see the sights and target well enough anymore at 100 yards to get any meaningful information from the shots. I figure that if the rifle is dead nuts on then there will be less error when shooting offhand which most all of my hunting shots are.

At the range I frequent there is a 100 yard steel plate and I don't care if i'm shooting my little 380 pistol or the 375 H&H before I leave the range or run out of ammo I shoot the 100 yard steel offhand a few times. Even with iron sights I can ring the steel more often then not, with the 380 i'm about 50/50.

Idaho45guy
What part of the ID/WA border are you from? I grew up in Palouse.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I like accurate rifles, but 2-3" at 100 yards will get the job done, on deer, at woods ranges. As BA Wallace mentioned, off handed shooting is a perishable skill that requires practice to maintain. I routinely practice on a 8" steel plate (smaller than a paper plate) at 100 yards. Wish I could connect on every shot, but I can't. I probably wouldn't take an offhand shot at a deer over 50 yards or so.

[richhodg66]

"I probably wouldn't take an offhand shot at a deer over 50 yards or so."

If you learn nothing else from off hand practice it's that you shouldn't do it of you don't have to.

A couple of years ago, I bought a neat little sporter in 7x57 and fell in love with it. Cast 60 pounds of soup can bullets for it, quickly developed a cheap load that would hold about 2" groups at 100 yards and then gave up the bench. I shoot this rifle at 6" black paper plates at 100 yards off my front porch and shot it a LOT that first year. I do my hunting from tree stands or ground blinds and shots are woods ranges at unalarmed deer. Most of my practice was from a seated position using my knee as a rest, just like I would from a tree stand and that paper plate is dead every single time that way. I dod practice a good bit of offhand at the same range and targets and could hit that plate probably 75% of the time offhand, might could do better with more practice and or a better suited rifle, but I can't see me shooting offhand that far at a deer the way I hunt.

Find a rest. It's part of the field skills that go into hunting.

[RU shooter]

Way to many once or twice a year hunters will fire 3-5 shots off a bench and call it good and never once shot or practice any kind of unsupported shooting , I don't know about anyone else but I don't hunt on a target range . I mostly hunt from a stand so shots are gonna be from the seated or standing position I practice both if I'm lucky I'll be able to brace the rifle off the side of a tree on a real shot but that's a bonus and don't count on it . As for accuracy standards the rifle and load will do 2 moa at 100 . My abilities with my 2.5x scope and a light rifle 4-5" or better at 100 unsupported most all my kills have been inside of 100 yds and great majority 50 or less

[sharps4590]

Well, if the guy doesn't know what the rifle is capable of solidly benched, there's no way he can find out offhand. As others have mentioned, evidently he isn't a very goo offhand shot either.

Back before I had a little bout with cancer and chemo I tried to shoot one of my Schuetzen rifles at least 5 rounds, every day, with complete concentration. I didn't miss many days. As BA Wallace said, as long as I kept at it my offhand skills improved and stayed with me. That was 2 years ago and I'm fine now but, those 5 shots a day haven't re-materialized....and my offhand shooting shows it.

[sghart3578]

I suspect most "hunters" are just crappy shots.

When I was drawing tags and hunting every year I would practice, practice, practice. I knew my model 70 was an MOA rifle and I wanted my skills to match my equipment. The end results were all one shot kills and no lost game.

I don't hunt any more but I still pursue accuracy on paper with most of my rifles. It is more fun for me to be able to pick and target at random and call my shoot, be it a stray clay pigeon or a beer can.

I bring this up because lately I have been watching a lot of Youtube videos (ain't lockdown grand?) Specifically rifle reviews on Marlin 336's and 1894's.

I was shocked when these clowns were shooting 6" groups at 50 yards and calling it good. No further practice, no interest in seeing where your load hits at 100 yards, no attempt to improve.

I think I will stop watching videos.


Steve in N CA

P.S. I don't consider myself a good shot, especially with handguns. That is why I try to shoot regularly, to improve my skills.

[redriverhunter]

I took a friend hunting with me, he bragged about what a great shot he is. well we are sitting in an off the ground deer blind about 4 foot in the air the shot is about 175 yard, rifle .270 3x9 scope. deer standing broad side we are sitting with the rifle resting. missed twice. next weekend we go to the range at a hundred yard at the bench he was getting a 6 inch group. I am on average an inch and half to 2 inch group from the bench. I have to be honest with myself about my ability to shoot.

[Norske]

I've used a rest for at least 30 years. It's been a long time since I shot on college rifle and pistol teams. Over half of the deer I've shot were shot with the least accurate centerfire rifle I own, because it was the lightest weight rifle I owned so if carrying was part of the hunt, it was the rifle I used. It is a 1 1/2" rifle off a rest, and it killed 43 deer with 43 shots. Deer hunting doesn't need prairie dog or competition accuracy.

[truckjohn]

Shooting offhand is not the same as shooting off the bench. Sure - it's good to see what a rifle will do on front and rear bags - but that's not the same...

I do as little offhand shooting as possible when hunting because I know the truth... I hunt mostly out of blinds and stands - so I can usually find a decent rest. That and our shots here are under 50 yards due to the thick woods...

The other side is that I know a LOT of hunters who are terrible on paper yet lay down tons of game.... And vice versa with paper target shooters who make very poor field shots... The two skills don't perfectly overlap...

That said - I am not a good offhand shooter but I like to do my practice with my 22, not my 30-30...

[Teddy (punchie)]

We are the 2-3 inch at a hundred or better.

I have seen guys with lead sled and best out of 5 guns was all over the place. I don't think they had a 5 inch group.

I tell people its not how much you shoot, any one can make noise. How well and how much do you shoulder that gun? Pick out a, anything and close your eyes is it in the line of sight? If not keep it up until it is. I have been know to take out the bolt (or open the action) and walk around picking out items, follow birds, point at our cows at 200 yds etc. See how steady I can hold.

I'm not sure I can still shoot quarts or even silver dollars at 100 yards any more. But still can hit a running deer. I think its easier for me to shoot a moving deer then one standing. That said I sure can miss ducks, darn did I say darn ducks in the wind 20-25 MPH at 30-40 yards are a ??? out of 4 guys how can a couple of ducks get away decoying ????? We all have fun. But sure do ?? how. Now on the water with just that little head at 30 yards or more there hard as ^^ll to kill.

[white eagle]

I strive for the best out of my rifles that said I do not use open sights on any of them
I use telescopic sights on all my rifles and my goal is to get the smallest 3-5 shot
group with the bullet,powder,case and primer I have chosen for that rifle
I never buy or shoot anyone elses' ammo

[rking22]

Checking zero, trajectory, and mechanical accuracy really needs to be done from a solid rest. After that offhand practice at varying distances is good. Let’s the hunter know what they are realistically able to hit, if they are honest with themselves. There have been several times during my life that I was a pretty good offhand shot, in competition. Offhand is a skill that degraded quickly when not used, air rifles are great for keeping in tune. Spring guns especially, due to being a bit unforgiving of technique. I am of the school tat I want good accuracy, but be realistic. I hunt with vintage rifles, open sights mostly and almost always cast bullets. Only 2 of my last 15 to 20 deer have been over 100 yards, a 222 rem and 250 savage took those, both scopes and jacked. All the rest have been open sights inside 75 yards and maybe a third offhand shots. I always try to set up to have a rest, but I like knowing what I am capable off offhand. If the shot is iffy, I don’t take it, that’s why they call it hunting.
Scoped jacketed bolt guns are expected to put hunting loads into 1.5 inches at 100 yards, from improvised rest, 5 in a row. Cast open sighted guns need to do that at 50, with hunting loads. My limit for offhand varies by the shoot ability of the gun, but basically 50 yards. I want 5 in a row in 5 inches. If a gun feels awkward to me I get rid of it, benchrest groups mean little when hunting. Unless you hunt from a benchrest, and I know a few people who do!

[brewer12345]

Realistically, a 2 or 3 inch group at 100 yards will do it without a fuss for most deer hunting. I struggle with vision and always have, so I really need a scope for shots beyond 75 yards. If I expect a hunt to be a long distance shot (elk), I really want a 1 to 1.5 MOA rifle so that my groups aren't ridiculously big at 250 yards.

I am not allowed to use a scope on a muzzleloader for hunting, so my shots are generally limited to 75 yards. Maybe a broadside deer completely still while I have a good rest I would try a 100 yard shot, but generally I expect to be closer when I take those shots. I think within 100 yards I have a slightly greater margin of error with a muzzleloader simply because I am generally using a projectile with at least a 50 caliber diameter. I ended up having to take an unsupported shot at a doe at 50 yards last year and the 54 round ball flattened her even with a slightly marginal hit (nicked a lung, blew the liver and a kidney, and made large entry and exit holes). I will probably use a 58 round ball this year, which means any hit anywhere near the vials or shoulder will do it.

[Win94ae]

I told him that if he couldn't do better than 75% of his offhand shots on a paper plate at 50 yards, then he had no business taking that rifle into the woods to try and kill a deer with it.

I've been hunting for 45 years, I think I have shot at probably 3 deer offhand. All the rest were at other field positions.

A hunter needs to know how accurate he is in specific field positions, sitting, kneeling, off a tree, off a fence, and so on; at specific distances.

Maybe instead of being dictatorial to him, you could have directed him to a video teaching field shooting positions?

Do you have an accuracy standard for hunting rifles? What is it?

Yes, I do have an accuracy standard for myself, and that guy, nor you, nor anyone else, are not subject to that standard.

[DougGuy]

I use the tennis ball rule. I want to know beyond question that the boolit is going to strike within a tennis ball sized circle of point of aim. Regardless of gun, caliber, or distance.

If I am in the woods where it is super thick, and I am sitting in a treestand above the brush, likely I am intent on taking game with the handgun, so how far can I shoot realistically and still maintain the tennis ball rule? 25-30 yards maybe? 50 if I am real steady and the sights are not jumping?

With a scoped slug gun that will cloverleaf a playing card at 100yds, knowing the wallyworld slug goes subsonic around 110yds, I'd say 125 at the most.

In reality, in woods like that, deer will be right under my stand, shots will be close enough I could smack them with a brick and never fire a shot, handgun kills are easy and certain. And I hunt thick woods. You will see more deer in thick woods than open spaces, you will take more deer in thick woods than hunting open areas.

My 1970s Ruger M77 has had a lot of work done to it, it will put 3 into a guitar pick at 200yds, I can hit that tennis ball out to 350 but wouldn't shoot over 250 on game.

[gumbo333]

Muddydogs you must have some secrets learned to get your hunting rifles shooting a half inch. I've messed with many rifles over my lifetime, 40 years ago trying to get some good name brand rifles to shoot into 1 1/2 inch groups was nigh on impossible ( which is still plenty good for hunting). Even the model 70 many times was doing good to get under 2 inches. But today things have really changed. Bullets/ boolits are better, many more powder choices, bought ammo is better plus the rifles, even the low dollar rifles shoot lights out. I know 1/2 inch groups are confidence builders but geez!

[444ttd]

back in the day, i would shoot off hand a target(4"x4"x1" steel target) at 50, 100, 150 and 200 yards. i was using j-words bullets and the powder of choice. i got good at it, but i was shooting 3 or 4 days a week. every rifle of mine would go at least 1" at 100 yards(5 shots/bench), most of them would group 1/2" and under. then came a stroke and it left me with right arm/leg only 20% good and my speech not much better. the first year, i had a ruger #1 in 270 with a 130gr nosler bt and (i think) imr4350 that would go under 1/2" at 100 yards(bench), i hope. i shot it on the bench and a 3 1/2"+ at 100 yards. i was flinching at every shot. over the spring/summer/fall i was training myself not to flinch. my group went from 3 1/2" to 1 1/4" at 100 yards. not great, but good. i had a 3 legged bog pod that used. i would shoot at the target at 50, 100 and 150 yards until i got 5 out 5 bullets on each. 200 yards was about 3 or 4 bullets out of 5. that was unacceptable to me, so i choose 150 yards and less at the deer.

the next year, i was introduced to cast bullets. and that, my friends, was and is best buddy ever!!!!! i admit, i was a little slow to get use to them. but now, j-word bullets are NOT shot out of any my rifles(except the 20 vartarg with 34gr midway/midsouth hp). "more speed" and "better accuracy" have been left in dust a long time ago. unique, hs-6, 2400 and 4895 are it for me. slow to medium speed and anything under 3" at 100 yards(3-5 shots/bench) is good enuff fer me.

9.3x57 280gr fn gc 100 yards(bench)


444 marlin 250gr penta hp 50 yards(bench)


270win 140gr hornady sst 100 yards(bench/ 2nd year after my stroke)


35/30 200gr fn gc 100 yards(bench/sighting it in)