Do base voids affect accuracy?

[KYCaster]

Probably shoot as good as you , and I do not weigh bullets either , if you read my post I asked to hear how they did , , but I really doubt he is going to see a lot of difference shooting a handgun offhand at close distances , and yes I like to shoot mine at 50 yards and farther for the revolvers .

Semi autos and 15 -25 yards I doubt its going to be a match shooting for the x-ring affair , and doubt it is going to matter , I would be more concerned with bases not filled out fully then I am with a pin hole void , if you fill your mold with a larger sprue you will have less voids or unfilled bases and a better bullet .

Talk and internet chatter is cheap , spend more time shooting less on the internet , and I notice your avatar shows sitting at a bench , range I belong to goes to 50 yards for pistols , up in the woods its farther and lots of rocks .

Now that's a cheap shot! (Pardon the pun)

Fred's avatar looks to me like a SASS stage... Shoot sitting behind table, unsupported. Way different than bench rested.

Crowd I used to hang out with wasn't impressed with anything less than 100 yd. hits. And why do you put semi-autos in a different category than revolvers. If you can hit with one, you should be able to hit with the other.

Please note that nowhere in this post do I claim to have the skill to hit any target at any distance with any firearm. Just some observations based on many years of, ummm... observing.

Have a nice day.
Jerry

[igolfat8]

I disagree. Any base deformations or voids will affect accuracy, even closer than 50y, depends on the void location & depth. If you can hand hold 3" groups at 25y, you'll often see fliers. Easy to prove, load ups some damaged bases & shoot them for groups, over the bench if you cant hand hold 3" at 25y. Bullet noses not an issue but the base drives the bullet, it will affect accuracy. It isn't about weight diff but the bullet is spinning & the gas is pushing it. As it leaves the bbl a deformation can cause the pressure to push the bullet diff. A small void directly in the center of the bullet will show less affect than one at the edge.

Fred,
Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. Thanks.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well most semi auto shooters , shoot at shorter ranges then some of the revolver shooters , I have shot semis at longer ranges , but sights on most are a lot lower and harder to hold elevation .

As to cheap shots pun intended , crowd I used to hang out with loved shooting at 50-100 yards or further with 45 colt and 357 mag. revolvers , still do when I go out to the woods , had several neighbors who shot the steel at long ranges with custom revolvers , some with gasp scopes .

Hitting with one for most is faster shooting closer in , I really do not see very many where I shoot even using revolvers anymore , Seems to be a age thing . I still enjoy them and still pack a Ruger blackhawk or a Colt clone when hiking or hunting or camping.

Smith and Wessons are hanging out gathering dust in the safe , nothing wrong with them , just lost interest , besides those 8 and 3/8 inch barrels look silly .

I know what his avatar looks like , and yes I have shot benchrest rifles not benchrest pistols, rifle sits in a case , may never shoot it anymore .

My father expected accuracy over blasting away , with rifles or pistols , but I see some ammo as being used more for shooting faster in practice verse shooting for tighter groups , different strokes for different folks , or maybe shoot more see what works what it does and keyboard less or cast more bullets less aspersions .

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have a little story...Not Voids, but wrinkles...not in pistol, but in Rifle.

Shortly after I started casting, I took on the challenge of casting some 22 cal boolits. Since I was new to casting, I didn't understand much about mold temp, but I knew a cold mold would make wrinkly boolits. Casting those little 22 boolits, it seemed to take forever to get the mold warm enough to make boolits that weren't wrinkly. My "forever", is defined as about 30 minutes of casting wrinkles. (yes, that was before I learned of preheating a mold, obviously).

I had a big pile of wrinkly boolits sorted from some that looked much better. So I thought I'd load two batches of ammo in 223rem (for a bolt action savage) to compare. I TL'd the wrinkly ones with 45-45-10 and I run the nice ones through a lubesizer, lubed with a DIY lube similar to a Improved Speed Green...both batches got Hornady gas checks.

When these went down range (100 yds), I was surprised that the wrinkly ones were more accurate...Measurably better accuracy. Obviously there was something else in the mix, causing a problem. That was long ago, but I surmise it was either the lube or the Lubesizer, because everything else was same (besides the wrinkles), Dies, seating depth, powder, primer, brass, gun.

[fredj338]

In some crowds I am really a good shot , in some crowds I embarrass myself.
But my take the closer to center the void is the less difference it makes . I used to only keep perfect bullets sorted by weight but a lot of my shooting is now at 7 yards off hand and perfect does not make much difference.
You can sort the perfect for better ammo but only the caster/shooter can decide what serves his purpose.
I buy a lot of cast bullets now in the past I would look at the bags and could not bring myself to buy them driving bands not filled along with other problems . Now I shoot them and have a good time and reserve my cast and limited lead supply for my best loads.
Use what works for what you are doing . But it is so easy to drop the junk ones back in the pot and make a good one. Sort your fresh bullets while the pot is coming back up to temp and pitch the ones back in that are below your standard. If you sort often you can catch a problem before you have a coffee can full of culls and you have wasted hours cause you didn't know you had a problem.

Ok, 7y, it doesn't tell you anything about accuracy. Even poor bullets will make one ragged hole. You can NOT test accuracy of a given load or bullet at 7y, offhand or from a ransom rest. It just isn't far enough. Accuracy testing starts at 50ft, 25y is better still.

[fredj338]

Probably shoot as good as you , and I do not weigh bullets either , if you read my post I asked to hear how they did , , but I really doubt he is going to see a lot of difference shooting a handgun offhand at close distances , and yes I like to shoot mine at 50 yards and farther for the revolvers .

Semi autos and 15 -25 yards I doubt its going to be a match shooting for the x-ring affair , and doubt it is going to matter , I would be more concerned with bases not filled out fully then I am with a pin hole void , if you fill your mold with a larger sprue you will have less voids or unfilled bases and a better bullet .

Talk and internet chatter is cheap , spend more time shooting less on the internet , and I notice your avatar shows sitting at a bench , range I belong to goes to 50 yards for pistols , up in the woods its farther and lots of rocks .

No the av shows me shooting a CAS stage seated. 99% of my shooting is IDPA, contact to 40y but I have done my fair share of met sil & other long range pistol shooting.
I wondered the same thing, how much base deformation was acceptable. SO I tested batches from bench rest. Small base deviations in the center of the bullet don't seem to affect accuracy much, at least to 50y. Deformations or voids at the edges will affect accuracy more. Sure, offhand for 90% of all handgun shooters, they wont see a diff. then again, most handgun shooters can never call their shots or shoot much past the dreaded 7y mark, where everyone looks like DM.

[fredj338]

so have you tried it? Again, it depends on just how severe the void is. A genuine base void just beside the sprue can throw a bullet a good 4-5" out of a group at 25 yards.

^^this^^^

[fredj338]

Now that's a cheap shot! (Pardon the pun)

Fred's avatar looks to me like a SASS stage... Shoot sitting behind table, unsupported. Way different than bench rested.

Crowd I used to hang out with wasn't impressed with anything less than 100 yd. hits. And why do you put semi-autos in a different category than revolvers. If you can hit with one, you should be able to hit with the other.

Please note that nowhere in this post do I claim to have the skill to hit any target at any distance with any firearm. Just some observations based on many years of, ummm... observing.

Have a nice day.
Jerry

People make cheap shots when they have nothing else to say.

[fredj338]

I know what his avatar looks like , and yes I have shot benchrest rifles not benchrest pistols, rifle sits in a case , may never shoot it anymore .

My father expected accuracy over blasting away , with rifles or pistols , but I see some ammo as being used more for shooting faster in practice verse shooting for tighter groups , different strokes for different folks , or maybe shoot more see what works what it does and keyboard less or cast more bullets less aspersions .

No one is casting anything but bullets. You seem to have gotten up on the wrong side of your old bed. I am just stating facts. The avg person has no idea what their given handgun is capable of accuracy wise. So sure, crap bullets will be just fine for 7y speed shooting. Even plates @ 10y, gtg. The question was does it affect the bullets accuracy & it does, just fact. I know, how about type less & test more? Load some crappy bullets up & go shoot them for groups, report back. I have & did.

[FLINTNFIRE]

No one is casting anything but bullets. You seem to have gotten up on the wrong side of your old bed. I am just stating facts. The avg person has no idea what their given handgun is capable of accuracy wise. So sure, crap bullets will be just fine for 7y speed shooting. Even plates @ 10y, gtg. The question was does it affect the bullets accuracy & it does, just fact. I know, how about type less & test more? Load some crappy bullets up & go shoot them for groups, report back. I have & did.

Actually you may have woke up on a bad hair day , as your original reply directed to me was what I called it , you state facts according to you and your opinionated self .

Voids and defects on bases do cause loss of accuracy , but if they are plinking or blasting or shooting close and at plates , there is not enough to care .

I have shot some and yes there are different points of impact , at close range rapid firing , not enough to care .

[FLINTNFIRE]

People make cheap shots when they have nothing else to say.

Well throw another slur my way , same can be said of you , instead of voicing your thought you had to make a snide comment , seems to be your trademark from reading your posts.

[FLINTNFIRE]

No the av shows me shooting a CAS stage seated. 99% of my shooting is IDPA, contact to 40y but I have done my fair share of met sil & other long range pistol shooting.
I wondered the same thing, how much base deformation was acceptable. SO I tested batches from bench rest. Small base deviations in the center of the bullet don't seem to affect accuracy much, at least to 50y. Deformations or voids at the edges will affect accuracy more. Sure, offhand for 90% of all handgun shooters, they wont see a diff. then again, most handgun shooters can never call their shots or shoot much past the dreaded 7y mark, where everyone looks like DM.

Yes , seated , stand up and shoot , 7 yards may be all that some people feel the need to shoot at , I to have shot at longer ranges and at steel , I never said they would be match bullets .

I do not shoot obvious defective bullets , I have shot some in the past to see how bad they were , and at the dreaded 7 yard mark it was not much , base fill out is important , but even the nice looking bullet can have a void .

[Shiloh]

Distance rifle, probably.
Pistol plate range, load and shoot.

Shiloh

[Shiloh]

Distance rifle, probably.
15 yard pistol plate range, load and shoot.

Shiloh

[wv109323]

I will add my experience. This is for rounded bases and not so much with voids in the base. I expect voids in the base will affect accuracy more than rounded bases.
I shoot NRA Bullseye so 50 yard accuracy is important. For one casting session, ( after the obvious) defects were culled) I picked 10 of the worse bullets I could find. I don't get any bullets with obvious voids in the base. These were slightly rounded bases that I would normally reject.
I ransom rested, bullets with rounded bases, rounds with acceptable bases and a commercially cast bullet with a known reputation. The groups were all the same when measured CTC. This was a 200 g. bullet tested with 4.2 g of Bullseye powder. Distance was 50 yards.
The difference I saw was some groups were horizontal and some were vertical. All groups were 3" CTC. Pistol was an accurized 1911.
I have since found discovered an error that has improved my results with the ransom rest. The manufacturer of the Ransom Rest recommends that the inserts be tighten so that there is an even spacing around the inserts. The inserts are cut for a pistol with an arched mainspring housing and I shoot a flat mainspring housing. I have found that the rear most clamping screw needs to be tighter to eliminate the pistol rocking in the inserts. I have since fired groups of 1 1/2" with my cast bullets.
So rounded bases may be responsible for 1 or 2" at fifty yards in my pistol.
A known pistolsmith that builds 1911's has said that rounded bases and voids were contributors to poor accuracy. How much rounded bases differ from voids is unknown but my guess is that is may be measurable but not a killer a close ranges. The scoring rings of USPSA and IDPS are pretty liberal compared to Bullseye. I doubt you would lose points with a cast boolit.
I will add one more thing. My experience of cast bullets versus the Nozler 185 HP is minimal. The Nozlers usually outshoot the cast by 1/4 to 1/2" at fifty yards.
He also said that a round with a split neck, the bullet would err in relation to where the split neck was in the chamber.
My experience is pistol practice will far outweigh sorting bullets by weight or appearance. But this is America and you can do whatever turns your crank.

[rintinglen]

I cast a lot of boolits when I was young and dumb and I just loaded and shot what came out the mold. Mind you these were wadcutters, mostly, with a fair few 358-477's thrown in. At first, I could see little difference between my home made stuff and the factory, Federal 38B, 148 grain mid-range stuff, but as I got better, the factory stuff got better more quickly than my home cast, home loaded stuff. There was no internet then, Al Gore hadn't got around to inventing it yet, and some of the stuff being written by renowned "Experts" was simply bologna. But the late George Nonte told me, cerca 1976 IIRC, when I met him at an NRA function that "better bullets mean better scores." I took it to heart, along with his advice to pre-heat my molds. I bought a cheap stop watch and began religiously heating my molds in the melt for 45 seconds before casting. I also started inspecting my castings more closely. The more I purged my castings of poorly filled bases, voids, and wrinkles, the better my hand loads got. Now I never did catch up to the factory stuff, but my groups shrank by a couple inches. But it was reducing my output markedly, for there were no more hours in a week then than before.

If you are shooting for the tightest group possible, the best boolit you can cast is none too good. But for just reasonably good results, develop a good technique and cast away. Load 'em up and shoot 'em up. You won't notice the difference, and you can blame the bad groups occasionally occuring on the poor boolits. After all, WE are all Natty Bumpo's who never miss, given a good gun and good ammo.

[fredj338]

Well throw another slur my way , same can be said of you , instead of voicing your thought you had to make a snide comment , seems to be your trademark from reading your posts.

Only because you keep asking for it. This was the original question:

I have several 9mm boolits with pencil tip voids in the base. At 50 yds or less would you expect the voids will effect accuracy out of a pistol?

My response was to that. At least you admit that yes, base deformations cause a lack of accuracy. Sure, if one can not shoot well enough to see the loss of accuracy, then no it wont matter.

[fredj338]

Yes , seated , stand up and shoot , 7 yards may be all that some people feel the need to shoot at , I to have shot at longer ranges and at steel , I never said they would be match bullets .

I do not shoot obvious defective bullets , I have shot some in the past to see how bad they were , and at the dreaded 7 yard mark it was not much , base fill out is important , but even the nice looking bullet can have a void .

I really am not sure what your issue is, maybe because you have never shot action pistol type competition, but seated shooting as in the av, was required? Shooting at 7y is nearly pointless but for the brand new shooter that is still learning. With reasonable skill, one can hit 10" plates @ 7y blindfolded.

[fredj338]

I will add my experience. This is for rounded bases and not so much with voids in the base. I expect voids in the base will affect accuracy more than rounded bases.
I shoot NRA Bullseye so 50 yard accuracy is important. For one casting session, ( after the obvious) defects were culled) I picked 10 of the worse bullets I could find. I don't get any bullets with obvious voids in the base. These were slightly rounded bases that I would normally reject.
I ransom rested, bullets with rounded bases, rounds with acceptable bases and a commercially cast bullet with a known reputation. The groups were all the same when measured CTC. This was a 200 g. bullet tested with 4.2 g of Bullseye powder. Distance was 50 yards.
The difference I saw was some groups were horizontal and some were vertical. All groups were 3" CTC. Pistol was an accurized 1911.
I have since found discovered an error that has improved my results with the ransom rest. The manufacturer of the Ransom Rest recommends that the inserts be tighten so that there is an even spacing around the inserts. The inserts are cut for a pistol with an arched mainspring housing and I shoot a flat mainspring housing. I have found that the rear most clamping screw needs to be tighter to eliminate the pistol rocking in the inserts. I have since fired groups of 1 1/2" with my cast bullets.
So rounded bases may be responsible for 1 or 2" at fifty yards in my pistol.
A known pistolsmith that builds 1911's has said that rounded bases and voids were contributors to poor accuracy. How much rounded bases differ from voids is unknown but my guess is that is may be measurable but not a killer a close ranges. The scoring rings of USPSA and IDPS are pretty liberal compared to Bullseye. I doubt you would lose points with a cast boolit.
I will add one more thing. My experience of cast bullets versus the Nozler 185 HP is minimal. The Nozlers usually outshoot the cast by 1/4 to 1/2" at fifty yards.
He also said that a round with a split neck, the bullet would err in relation to where the split neck was in the chamber.
My experience is pistol practice will far outweigh sorting bullets by weight or appearance. But this is America and you can do whatever turns your crank.

A rounded base doesn't really affect accuracy. IT becomes basically a bevel base. Voids off center of the base, yes they do throw fliers as will a void in the grease groove. Just my limited testing, but anyone can prove it, no need for speculation.

[Rigsby]

I have several 9mm boolits with pencil tip voids in the base. At 50 yds or less would you expect the voids will effect accuracy out of a pistol?

The simple answer is no, it will not affect accuracy.

The more complicated answer is it might if you do long-range pistol or revolver shooting like IHMSA.

My 357 supermag doesn't care about base flaws when I shoot at less than a 100 yards using 158grain (very) hard-cast bullets going to 200grain bullets I experienced erratic accuracy at 200 yards which improved when I added a gascheck, it could be the gascheck which eliminated the sprue cut tab thing at the base of the bullet, if it was eliminating the the base flaw or a better gas seal obtained by using a gascheck, I have no idea......

But at 50 yards with a 9mm, honestly I don't think so