vertical stringing in Win 94

[fatelk]

I have a Winchester Ranger 30-30 from the '80s, in excellent condition. I know it's nothing fancy or special. I bought it last year, and have taken it out a number of times, tried some different loads, jacketed and cast, with fixed sights and a scope. Some shoot better than others, but what they all have in common is vertical stringing. The typical 50 yard group measures an inch or less horizontally, and about 2 inches vertically. There's got to be something simple (I hope), but I'm missing it.

[M-Tecs]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ging-in-win-94

[fatelk]

Thank you, that thread is packed with tons of good info. Just what I was looking for!

[pietro]

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In addition to the info in that thread, please take the hard-won info below into consideration.




Bench resting firearms with two-piece stocks is very much different from benching a bolt-action or other firearm with a one-piece stock.


IME, most vertical stringing that occurs when shooting rifles with two-piece stock from a bench rest is caused by improperly shooting the gun.



Again IME, the best accuracy is achieved when NO portion of the gun's wood or metal parts touch anything other than a portion of the shooter's body - and certainly not the front/rear rest and/or benchtop.


In practice:

* The forend is firmly grasped by the non-trigger hand with the back of that hand atop the front rest and pulling down at the same time pulling the butt back solidly into the shooter's shoulder - which reduces the rifle's bouncing off the front rest when fired.

* The buttstock is similarly firmly grasped while leaving the trigger finger free to move, also pulling the butt back solidly into the shoulder 0 AND ensuring that the toe of the butt doesn't come in contact with the benchtop or a rear rest (if used).



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[Texas by God]

Hard won info indeed. Pietro nailed it on the bench technique. I learned the hard way too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[dverna]

Guys, I do not doubt your experience, so do not take my question the wrong way. Trying to understand.

Why will a lever action shoot better with the forend held by the non-trigger hand than resting the forend on the sand bag?

Thanks,

[Norske]

The fore end is attached to the barrel, therefore resting the fore end on the firm sand bag will cause vertical stringing. A hand between them will cushion the fore end and reduce stringing. If you want the best rest I've found for recoiling rifles, try a rolled-up sleeping bag. At our indoor range, I set the receiver on the sand bag, not the fore end. That has given me "dime groups" (a fairly easy award given for a three-shot group, the outside of the holes can be covered by a dime) with both a Savage 99 300 Savage and a Browning BLR 358 Winchester with 200 gr cast bullets. That Browning has made a interlocking jacketed bullet group for 4 shots, but I didn't push the rifle back forward for the 5th shot, and it hit higher.

[pietro]

Guys, I do not doubt your experience, so do not take my question the wrong way. Trying to understand.

Why will a lever action shoot better with the forend held by the non-trigger hand than resting the forend on the sand bag?

Thanks,

While Don is correct, the short answer is that whenever a rifle is shot with the barrel or forend resting on a solid object underneath (or on one side or the other, like held against a tree when hunting) the barrel will react and take the path of least resistance - which is away from the solid surface.

Ergo, underneath = vertical movement; one side = away to the right or left

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[Win94ae]

Guys, I do not doubt your experience, so do not take my question the wrong way. Trying to understand.

Why will a lever action shoot better with the forend held by the non-trigger hand than resting the forend on the sand bag?

Thanks,

I've seen none of that with my Winchester 94ae. I get the exact same groups, and POI, no matter what I rest, or don't rest the gun on. I used to think the forend was a problem, until I experimented with it and found no matter what I did with screw tension or whatnot, it acted exactly the same... even with the forend, magazine tube, and hardware removed.

Every time I had a problem, it was either the powder someone suggested was not compatible, or it was too dirty, or as in my case now with a heavily used firearm, my bore is worn. But I can still shoot sub-moa groups.

The way the hardware is setup now, the rear band screw is snug, the front is almost snug. All the hardware in the front wiggles easily, the wood and rear band does not move.

Now, my Marlin did have a problem with the forend; everything was ill-fitting, and a bit of sanding relieved the binding. That is setup differently than the Winchester, the wood shifts slightly back and forth, whereas everything else is the same.

What is your powder?

[fatelk]

Everything was about right on my rifle, with the slight exception of the rear band being slightly binding.

I took it to the range, and tried a couple different ways of shooting it from the bench. My first 50 yard 5-shot group was about 1", with no vertical stringing. I held it with my hand against the sandbag. Then I tried a group with the bottom of the receiver resting on the sandbag. Bad vertical stringing on that group. I was running out of time so didn't shoot much more. I figure two groups is a bit inconclusive, and my loads are unproven too. This project will give me something to do for a while.

[Shawlerbrook]

Mic macpherson has some great information on accurizing leverguns in one of his books.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/chapter23.htm

[Drm50]

Two piece stocks, bag the reciever, it’s that simple. Local had a 700Rem 22/250 with 10x scope. He shot some really respectable groups and with factory ammo. He decided to make himself a bipod to carry afield while groundhog shooting. Did a fine job but his bipod was made to slide onto barrel.
That caused gun to shoot all over. This is same type stress that makes 2 piece stocks vertical string.

[fatelk]

I finally got back to this, took it out to the range again. The issue must be my shooting technique. I've tried every which way, and only get the very rare group that doesn't string vertically, and I think those are just lucky groups. By practicing different methods I've minimized it though. Here are three 5-shot groups I shot this afternoon.



These were at 25 yards. I got tired of running out to 50 and 100 yards, so I figured 25 was fine for troubleshooting and load development. These are getting much better than before, to a degree that I'm OK with for this rifle, but you can still see the stringing. The top group was with the mag tube and forearm removed, seemed to tighten a little and shifted point of impact. I don't know that I've had a single 25 yard group any wider than .5".

I've tried several loads, jacketed and cast. These were with Lee 170FN-GC, powder coated, 33gr LVR. I tried some with 2400 and they shot about the same for accuracy. I worked up this LVR load to approximate a factory 170gr jacketed load, and it does shoot to the same POA. I have a friend who wants to try them on bear. He's a government trapper who shoots more bears in a season than the rest of us will in a lifetime. He says the 170gr 30-30 works very well on them.

[Bird]

fatelk.
Here is the answer to your problem.
I will quote pietro.
'' In practice:

* The forend is firmly grasped by the non-trigger hand with the back of that hand atop the front rest and pulling down at the same time pulling the butt back solidly into the shooter's shoulder - which reduces the rifle's bouncing off the front rest when fired.

* The buttstock is similarly firmly grasped while leaving the trigger finger free to move, also pulling the butt back solidly into the shoulder 0 AND ensuring that the toe of the butt doesn't come in contact with the benchtop or a rear rest (if used).''

The grip on the forend does not matter so much, if the carbine is rested in exactly the same position on the front rest each and every time. What usually happens with holding the forend, the shooter tends to pull the firearm more into the shoulder.
Pulling the stock harder into the shoulder will decrease the amount of recoil distance between your shoulder and the buttstock , and stop the muzzle from climbing as much. You need a consistent firm/ hard pull on the stock that is repeatable for the rifle to recoil in the same manner thus eliminating vertical stringing. Pull it into your shoulder like you mean it.
An important consideration here, is what is between you and the buttstock. If you are trying to shoot with a jacket on, or a thick sweater or gloves, it becomes hard to get an even feel for each shot. For the absolute best results, I always shoot in a T shirt. I can get my carbines to string easily,especially in the cold days, or get nice round groups depending on how I hold it, and what I am weraring.
Lastly, if the butstock is too short or your arms, it will make it difficult for you to get a good firm pull into your shoulder. If that is the case, add a bit of length to the end of the stock, and add nothing that is soft or spongy.

[fatelk]

Yes, I already read that, multiple times. That is what I have been doing. That's why I said I was working on my shooting technique and improving.