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Thread: Question about pierced primers , any ideas

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Did the revolvers pierce primers with the original springs [particularly the hammer springs] in them?
    No I don't think they did but in each gun I fired 100 rounds of federal 100 grain 327 factory loads to make sure the guns were ok before changing any thing on the guns. I read somewhere for what it is worth that the those Federal loads have small rifle primers , but I don't know that for sure.
    On Rugers I go 1 weight down on the hammer and a lighter trigger return . I have done several GP100 ,SP101 , and at least 10 Ruger SA guns . The only problems I have seen are light strikes on 9mm in a convertible Black Hawk and these 2 327s with pierced primers. And they pierce with 32 s&w 32 h&r and 327 all with light to moderate loads.
    Same primers in my 38/357 sp101 and 2 GP100s with the same primers and have no problems.
    It would not be hard to put the stock hammer spring back in for a test if the light spring could be the problem.

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy
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    Re: firing pin protrusion- I also have a Single 7 that pierces primers- regardless of primer brand or powder charge. I measured firing pin protrusion at .047" with the gap between the end of the firing pin and the front of the chamber (chamber not held forward) at .006". I'll let Ruger get back up to speed once this virus settles down and contact them about what is within tolerances.
    Loren

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockshooter View Post
    Re: firing pin protrusion- I also have a Single 7 that pierces primers- regardless of primer brand or powder charge. I measured firing pin protrusion at .047" with the gap between the end of the firing pin and the front of the chamber (chamber not held forward) at .006". I'll let Ruger get back up to speed once this virus settles down and contact them about what is within tolerances.
    Loren
    I would like to hear the response you get from Ruger. It might be very helpful.
    I am going to put the stock hammer spring back in mine and see it if makes any difference. If not I will load 50 with small rifle primers and see if that helps

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    Update , I put the stock hammer spring back in and fired 50 handloads in 32 H&R with 115 rnfp 3.4 grains Unique with WW small pistol primers I also fired 15 federal 100 grain factory 327.
    The pieced primers on the WW primers was 48 out of 50 compared to 11 out of 100 with the lighter hammer spring . The 15 327 factory loads had no pierced primers.
    I fired 1 25 yard group with the federal 327 had 1 called flyer the other 4 in a 11/2" group this was in the single seven.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I think I will put the light hammer spring back in and load some with small rifle primers and see what I get unless someone has a better idea .

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    You can measure firing pin protrusion if you want, but I just can't imagine it being excessive enough. The way to measure is to swing out the cylinder, and cock the hammer (while holding the cylinder release out). Then take an allen wrench or other flat ended punch and push the firing pin all the way forward from the rear. Then you use feeler gauges or similar to eyeball level with the end of the pin. I see .035" to .045" listed as ideal.

    The best fix for this is to remove your firing pin in the manner I posted earlier. Then polish it smooth and round. The more you shoot it as is, the worse your pin will get. At this point it certainly needs a polishing. Either that or send it to Ruger. Once you make the firing pin bushing tool, the job only takes 15-30 minutes.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks megasupermagnum under magnification I am not seeing any flame cutting on the firing pin and you can't tell from the pics but 327 primers have a nice smooth print from the pin.
    I will check the firing pin protrusion and see what it is but if small rifle primers don't pierce I have no issues with using them if they test good when shooting. I have no rugers but these two 327s that have this problem one the single seven the other the sp101 I wonder if Ruger has a different FP spec for them to deal with small rifle primers in factory loads . My 357 sp101 has never pierced a primer when loaded with these same primers.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master

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    Blanking is a problem associated with weak mainsprings. Basically, primer flow is so great that it pushes the firing pin off the primer and the primer either completely blanks like it was punched out on a press or it flows into the firing pin hole and ties up the cylynder.

    If you have a high powered loope, look at the firing pin indentations on your primers. You should see a smooth concave divot void of any small convex anomallies (poc marks from flame cutting on the firing pin). With all those busted primers, it wouldn't surprise me if the face of the firing pin looked like the backside of the moon by now.

    I would highly recommend replacing the firing pin and sticking with the tougher primers for your sub magnum loads and whatever is recommended for the 327. Top loads in 327 are in the 42k + area.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    The firing pin is ok it has been checked it is not flame cut. Have checked it you can still see the machine marks on the face . The 327 factory load primers have a smooth ball shaped indent from the firing pin.
    I am trying to deal with it before there is damage . The stock hammer spring pierced 48 out of 50
    The light hammer spring pierced 5 out of 50 . So if it shoots small rifle primers with the light spring that looks like the way to go. But I am going to look into the FP protrusion .

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    Well looked around today tying to find what spec is for firing pin protrusion from Ruger and found a post on a Ruger forum where a gunsmith posted that excluding rimfire Rugers should all be .035 to .045
    I checked the single 7 it was .070 so I checked my sp101 357 it was .064 my 2 Black Hawks were .060 and .065
    I measured with the FP pressed forward with a stack feeler gauges not the most precise but gives me and idea.
    I will make me a better way to measure and meanwhile switch to rifle primers.
    If the piercing stops I am not worried about it. It is close to the same as the rest of my Rugers
    Last edited by onelight; 05-06-2020 at 09:17 AM.

  10. #30
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    So after trying it myself, I beive there must be a problem with the test as described. I tried both my GP100's one in 327 federal and one in 357 magnum. Doing the test as described and pushing the firing pin as far as it will go, effectively bottoming it out on its shoulder, I get about .060" for one and .065" for the other. Neither of which have shown any pierced primers that I've ever seen.

    So here is what I did instead. I again cocked the hammer with the cylinder open, and latch pushed forward. I then used an allen wrench between the hammer and transfer bar, and lowered the hammer on it. The reason for this is that the hammer has a stop on it, so that it will not fully compress the transfer bar. And the reason it does not is so the transfer bar can then retract when you release the hammer.

    Anyway, so with some kind of thing between the hammer and transfer bar, and keeping the trigger pulled, both of my GP100's firing pins then protrude .040" right on the money.

    Either way, I don't think this is your problem. Rifle primers may or may not help. They can't hurt the piercing, but they can hurt the accuracy.

  11. #31
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    onelight. If you go the rifle primer route Federal priming compound is the most sensitive. Remington 6 1/2's and CCI400 have the softest cups. Remington 7 1/2 and CCI 41's are some of the hardest and seem to withstand pressure the best. If you go too hard of a cup you may start getting misfires.

    Post #2 gives you you the spec of each primer http://sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-06-2020 at 01:38 AM.
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  12. #32
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    I would suspect that you may have a headspace problem.
    With excessive headspace, when the firing pin strikes the cartridge it drives the cartridge forward when it fires. The primer can, at this point back out of the primer pocket enough to pierce the primer as the cartridge under pressure recoils to the guns recoil shield. Driving the primer back into the primer pocket.
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  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks guys , when I measured my FP I put a pin between the hammer and FP so it protruded the maximum and measured that , as you know the transfer bar drops out of the way as the trigger is released so it is not in the way.
    Since I don't have any specs. I can use my other Rugers that don't pierce for comparison I will measure endplay on the cylinders and the gap between the recoil shield at the FP and a case head to see what that is. I have checked end shake on the 327 Sp101 before and it was good but will check it again. The SP101 only pierces 1 or 2 out of 100 with small pistol primers. The piercings with both are a tiny pin hole .
    Where I buy primers has a good price on WW and usually has them in stock in normal times , availability and price are the reasons I use WW primers and I have never had any reason up to this point to not use them.
    I have 800 to 1000 32s loaded at this time with WW primers so would sure be nice to make my 2 32s quit doing this. I really appreciate all the suggestions .
    Thanks again.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
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    327 Federal Magnum , 45,000 PSI max = Mag primer. Thicker cup.

    Lite loads- uniform primer pockets. Primers can be flush to .008" below the case head. (SAAMI)

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    I am not sure what the the differences are between small rifle primers and small pistol mag. Primers .
    My Hornady manuals .327 data uses Federal 205 primers for all loads and at least one of my other manuals uses small rifle primers .
    The Federal .327 factory loads don't pierce and they shoot great in my guns sub 2" 25 yard groups when I am doing my part , for me that is as good as I am going to do with 4" revolvers with iron sights.
    What has me baffled is those high pressure factory Federal loads don't pierce . My 32 S&W pressure loads do.
    Never had this happen before. My single seven FP does protrude more than my other Rugers but I am not sure if that is by design or a defect

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Small size primers a not standardized like large pistol and large rifle. For example, The Federal 200 was at one time considered a small rifle primer, and the 205 was the small rifle magnum. That has since changed, and the 200 is now called a small pistol magnum. The Federal 205 is a very thick primer, and I believe that is what is used in Federal AE factory loads.

    On another note, if you send those guns back to Ruger, they will fix it at no cost to you.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    As for headspace, I measured both of mine. Using Federal brass, I get a rim thickness of .053" for the 357 magnum and .054" for the 327 federal. Put into the cylinder, and using a feeler gauge between the brass and frame face, I hold an .011" and pass a .010" gauge in the 327 federal. In the 357 magnum, .011" is too tight, and .010" is a slip fit. So both are at about .063"-.064" headspace. I have no idea what the normal range is.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Ok, a quick search shows a go gauge is about .0605", and a no-go gauge is about .0660". So I'm in spec.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    I wish I had caught this earlier I would have returned it then.
    My single seven has been a problem child from the beginning although I have no doubt that Ruger would have fixed all the issues I had with it . It was one that the cylinder had to be in in the perfect position to load or unload the long 327s or it would jam tight I relived the frame under the loading gate to get it to work reasonably , the cylinder base pin started jumping under recoil Ruger sent me a new base pin and spring it also jumped I added a heavy spring and it still jumped so I went to an after market pin with a set screw to keep it in.
    I have also de-burred the insides and added trigger hammer shims and a spring set. To smooth it up and lighten the trigger a bit , trigger is ok but not great but the gun shoots really well with ammo it likes. I could put it all back stock except where I relieved the frame for loading and return it for Ruger to fix but the kicker is it works perfect with the ammunition "327" it was designed for " except for the stock base pin" so I don't know if Ruger would do anything but test fire and send it back. But I may try that if I don't find a solution I can live with.
    I don't normally do modifications I can't buy parts to fix if I screw it up and I have seen firing pins for sale so I could try shortening the pin to match my other Rugers I have if I don't find another solution .

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    I promise that if you send a note with that says something to the order of "primers keep piercing with 32 s&w long and 32 h&r ammo" That Ruger will diagnose and fix the problem. Their customer service is the best in the business. Include everything you can think of, including the base pin problem.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check