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Thread: Tips and opinions needed on neck flaring bottleneck cartridges

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Tips and opinions needed on neck flaring bottleneck cartridges

    I have a question on flaring bottle necks. I used a lee universal sized I just picked up. I loaded the same 35 Rem rounds for my 336 with the boolit further out and and the necks look fine.

    I had to load shorter for my 7600 35 Rem toady after checking the OAL. It seemed like the neck bulged out when going over the last crimp groove. I figured my crimp might flatten it back out...nope. If feeds and cycles just fine in my pump gun so is this OK? May try and flair a little less next time? Maybe it’s just fine? It just looks a little bulged to me.

    This was a dummy round I made to check feeding.


  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    The only time that's happened to me was when I had set the seat/crimp die down too far, or a longer case than the others snuck in.

    Or trying to crimp when the neck couldn't roll into the groove, those times- I was trying to crimp above or below the groove.
    With nowhere for the metal in the neck to go,,, it gets crushed down, hence, the bulge.

    What little bit of roll crimping I do now, I do in a separate step after seating.
    If a long case sneaks in, I can feel it 'bump', and stop there.
    Last edited by Winger Ed.; 04-30-2020 at 05:49 PM.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    For loading lead PCd boolits in rifle, I chamfer the inside of the case mouth to aid in seating, either plain base of gas checked. Your boolit looks tumble coated or ASBBPC 'shake and bake' coated. I do both ESPC and ASBBPC and yours look fine. I'm curious if expander ball is doing a good enough job. Anyway, If they load, I'd shoot them. The cases will definitely be fire fire formed for your chamber.
    Common sense Gun Safety . . .

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  4. #4
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    The case didn’t flair out till it went over the last lube groove. It didn’t bulge from crimping. Yes tumble coated with a few different powders mixes together... they never bake smooth. I use smokes clear PC for 99.9% of my hunting rounds now just because they bake glass smooth and imo OCD opinion the smoother clear PC aids in long range accuracy. The clear PC also fills in the dings in the dents caused from tumbling and normally the colored PC does not. They load and cycle perfectly.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Here are some I loaded longer for my 336. They don’t seem to bulge as much.



    And the boolit I used...


  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    The bottom ones look like there is more room for the neck to roll into the groove compared to the top ones
    without being crushed down making the bulge.

    As Perry Mason would say, "Your Honor, the Defense rests".
    It wasn't playing the blame game, finding fault, and complaining about every little thing that made America great.
    It was God, guns, and guts.


    OK folks. Enough of this idle chit-chat. This ain't your Grandma's sewing circle.
    EVERYONE !!
    Get back to your oars. The Captain wants to water ski.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Is there any chance you can try the narrow expander or vice versa? I don't remember off the top of my head where the cutoff was for when to use the small vs large.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    There are two different heads in the lee universal flaring tool. I used the one suggested. The case folds nicely into the crimp grove on the longer ammo. I used a lee factory crimp collet die on both. It squeezed flush to the crimp groove on the shorter rounds. The case was already bulged out before I applied any crimp. Other than not flaring my neck out as wide to start with next go around it’s probably just the nature of the beast the way I load this boolit short I’m guessing. Like I said it feeds just fine but I wanted to get some opinions and see why it’s bulging. I’m still wondering if it’s that last crimp groove expanding my case lip out like it’s flaring it even more when seating over it.

    Here is another pic...



    I never trimmed this case after I sized it. I can sure can see that it stretched uneven with crimp angle.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 04-30-2020 at 07:54 PM. Reason: Spelling

  9. #9
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    NOE makes an expander plug to use in the Lee Universal Neck flaring tool , it flares and expands a case mouth like a Lyman M-Die does . Cost is $6.50 from NOE . This set up really helps seating cast boolits, the Lee tool simply flares add the NOE expander plug to it and you have an M-Die type expander that works much better .
    Gary
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Did you readjust your crimp when you seated your bullet deeper the round in your hand it appears the crimp is on top of the front driving band of the bullet with no crimp grove under it could it be to much crimp?
    What type crimp die are you using ?
    And was that round crimped at the longer OAL before you seated it deeper to fit the other rifle?

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I use a lee factory crimp collet die. I kept spinning my seater die down till it seated to 2.370. The neck flared out when it went over the last lube groove. I kept removing the round to measure and observe. This did not happen from crimping it was already bulged(flaired) out from going over the last lube groove. It seemed to flair out on the last lube groove. Saw it with my own eyes. I then crimped it. I figured it would flatten out the flair but it just crimped the edge so it now looks like it bulged from below it. Now it looks like a bulge. I could run a taper die down it to straighten out the neck before I crimp with the lee fCCD next time to see if it looks more even. I really don’t think it’s that big of a deal the note I look at it. I believe the case neck expanded with the shape of the boolit when I seated over the lube groove. I will start out with less of a flare next time to see if it helps. I flaired a hair more abs used a polished seater die.


    It had a good amount of neck tension when seating and I gave it a nice even crimp so I would assume I’ll have some preetty consistent pressures abs velocities this way. Last week I didn’t flair as much and cut a ring in my boolits with the seater die when seating them.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 04-30-2020 at 09:34 PM.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    If you're trying to crimp a bullet without a crimp groove, or a round where the crimp groove in the bullet does not align with the case mouth you are going to have issues. Seat to the crimp groove and then crimp. Make sure your cases are trimmed, variations in length will play hell with crimping if your case lengths are not uniform.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    You know the other thing I just thought of. I wonder if the neck tension is so great that it sized your bullet down, and that bulge you see is the only part of the bullet not sized by the brass?

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Try backing your seating die out of the press a turn or two and run the seating stem down back to the OAL you need and see if it still does that.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    You know the other thing I just thought of. I wonder if the neck tension is so great that it sized your bullet down, and that bulge you see is the only part of the bullet not sized by the brass?
    This sounds like a really good explanation.

    Maybe try using less expansion on the flaring die and see if there is less bulge. I set mine to just accept the base of the bullet.

    I would have thought the Lee FCD would 'iron out' that portion of the bullet. Now I have to go take one of mine apart to see how the crimp collet is formed.

    To test all this try seating a bullet (no crimp) and then pulling it and measuring the dia of the bottom portion and the last drive band.

    Then seat another one more shallow and see if it does the same thing.

    Might also want to measure the bullets before seating them in a case. I assume you are sizing them to bore dia or so. Do all the driving bands show marks of sizing?

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I’m wondering if it was flared the whole time and it was just my eyes? I’m wondering if where I crimped my case to the boolit it was already starting to taper down? Here’s a pic of another one I seated longer so you can see the crimp and the groove I tapered to looks narrower. I’m thinking less a flare on my case to start out with might be my answer. I have no choice to but to seat shorter on the 7600 or it will jam into my lands. I also noticed on the darker cases that I had annealed first Folded right in on the ones I seated longer. They are the front left 3 on the photo of all the clear PC boolits. There is no bulge on them after seating or crimping.





    I can pull the bullet and measure to make sure it didn’t size it down but there wasn’t a lot of force when I see the display down so I don’t think that’s the issue. I seated some that I didn’t flare much and neck sized with the same die and I cut rings in the boolits seating them and never sized down. This also was an old case I bought back in 04’ that I fired and had been sitting around for years so it the brass could be giving some spring back?
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 05-01-2020 at 09:45 AM.

  17. #17
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    I think you are over-crimping. Only run the case in far enough to straighten the case.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
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  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    Here are some I loaded longer for my 336. They don’t seem to bulge as much.



    And the boolit I used...

    The one in the right front corner looks slightly bulge and in my experience that is caused by trim length, it only takes a few thousands to cause that.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master
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    When bullets are seated in the case, there needs to be a tension on the bullet between 0.001 and 0.002. To achieve this, either a Lyman M die or other expander plugs are used for the proper tension.The Lee Universal Dies do not provide the proper tension for the full length of the the seated bullet. They are great though to create the proper bell of the case mouth so when the bullet is first seated, half of the bullet base is loosely seated in the mouth. Instead of buying the more expensive expander plugs specific to one caliber, I buy compression dies from Track of the Wolf for 3 bucks and turn them to the proper caliber tension size. Finally, when the Lee Univesal plugs are used, the bell left on the case has to be removed by putting the reload in a FL sizing die and 'lightly' tapping the round to remove the bell
    Also,a reverse procedure works good: expand the case to the proper dimensions with an expander die for the full length of the bullet, then create the bell with the Lee Universal to case bell needed then finally remove the existing flared bell in the FL sizing die
    Or another process is to resize the bullet to the proper tension size instead of using an expander die
    Regards
    John

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I’m with Johnboy, the cases are all trimmed to the exact same length and flaring the bell caused the bulge. My crimp just squeezed the rim and not the complete flare back down to flush. The bulge we are talking about is the bell flare that was never flattened back down with my crimp style. The FL die bump might be tried after if applying less of a bell flare does not fix the issue. Im just wondering if I might accidentally seat my boolits deeper by trying to flatten my case neck’s flare with a FL sizer die?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check