elmer Keith said you had to have 1000 fps to expand a pure lead hp .44

[caffe]

He shot a few cattle to determine that. I've shot a lot more, but smaller critters and I agree. I've also noticed that smaller diameter hp bullets need more velocity in order to expand reliably in flesh and blood and that in no way can a jhp expand at less velocity than a lhp of the same caliber, weight, design and velocity. So when you say you cant get a lhp to expand, it's not only the hardness of the alloy, the diamater and velocity of the bullet must also be taken into account. I"ve done no real experimentation of hp cavity design, but the inverted hollowbased wadcutter, when you can get it to not tumble in flight, expands well in water at 900 fps. The little post in the nose cavity of the first .38 Hydroshoks was put there to prevent the bullet's tumbling. They also expand in water at 900 fps. I've had quite a few bullets NOT expand in animals which did expand in water. The lungs are just air sacks, and you need fluid flowing into and out of the nose cavity in order to "peel back" the lips of the hp. Hair, skin and clothing debris can also prevent a bullet's expanding in a critter, if its velocity is marginal for expansion. I dont trust 9mm jhp's to expand reliably in flesh at speeds under 1300 fps.

[USSR]

With all due respect to Elmer, the 3 bullets below all exited the barrel at less than 1,000 fps. On the left, the bullet I like to call the flying ashtray came out of my Colt Gold Cup at about 800fps. The middle .38 Special +P load bullet generated 845fps out of my snubbie, while the one on the right did 940fps. In my hollowpoint testing I have found the alloy to be crucial; low antimony and high tin content does the trick.

Don

[Outpost75]

Expansion reduces penetration and is over-rated as a killing mechanism. It may make small caliber bullets of marginal caliber more effective on small animals but may also fail to reach the vitals of large game. I quit using cast lead HPs on anything I planned to eat and on anything larger than whitetail deer 30 years ago and never looked back.

You want a meplat not less than 0.6 of bullet diameter and sufficient velocity that solid bullets of 8-10 BHN alloy will rivet upon hitting bone, and will give through and through penetration.

You also want a bullet which is heavy for the caliber: 170 grains in the .38 Special and .357, 200 grains in the .38-40, .40 S&W and 10mm, 230 grains in the .44-40 and .45 ACP, 250 grains in the .44 Magnum, .455 Eley and .45 Auto Rim and 270-grains in the .45 Colt, at ~1000 fps, will give great penetration and do all that is ever required of a packing pistol.

Anything else is simply mental masturbation.

[nicholst55]

At the link is a somewhat related blog post on Lucky Gunner about handgun bullet performance. Granted, they are specifically addressing jacketed bullet performance, but the basic precepts are true for cast. In Elmer's experience, that might have been true about needing a specific velocity to initiate expansion. In today's world, not so much. If you scroll about halfway down the page, Chris Laack, handgun ammo product manager for CCI, Speer and Federal, states that today they can design a handgun bullet to perform pretty much any way they want it to.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/w...ics-gel-works/

[USSR]

Expansion reduces penetration and is over-rated as a killing mechanism.

It's not an either/or question. A heavy for caliber bullet that expands while providing complete penetration is definitely not over-rated.

Anything else is simply mental masturbation.

Hmm, simply not going there.

Don

[fredj338]

He shot a few cattle to determine that. I've shot a lot more, but smaller critters and I agree. I've also noticed that smaller diameter hp bullets need more velocity in order to expand reliably in flesh and blood and that in no way can a jhp expand at less velocity than a lhp of the same caliber, weight, design and velocity. So when you say you cant get a lhp to expand, it's not only the hardness of the alloy, the diamater and velocity of the bullet must also be taken into account. I"ve done no real experimentation of hp cavity design, but the inverted hollowbased wadcutter, when you can get it to not tumble in flight, expands well in water at 900 fps. The little post in the nose cavity of the first .38 Hydroshoks was put there to prevent the bullet's tumbling. They also expand in water at 900 fps. I've had quite a few bullets NOT expand in animals which did expand in water. The lungs are just air sacks, and you need fluid flowing into and out of the nose cavity in order to "peel back" the lips of the hp. Hair, skin and clothing debris can also prevent a bullet's expanding in a critter, if its velocity is marginal for expansion. I dont trust 9mm jhp's to expand reliably in flesh at speeds under 1300 fps.

Alloy & HP design play a huge factor in getting a bullet to expand. Sure, I can make a LHP not expand at 1000fps, deform but not expand. The 230gr HST will expand down to 800fps. I can also get good expansion in a 25-1 lead/tin HP going about 850fps. It isn't as simple as a velocity window.

[Walks]

I found out when I was a kid that there was a big difference between alloys as far as expansion.
20-1 would expand in Coyotes.
WW would not.
I think the hardening effects of antimony made the difference.

Blasted auto-correct.

[USSR]

I found out when I was a kid that there was a big difference between alloys as far as expansion.
20-1 would expand in Coyotes.
WW would not.
I think the hardening effects of antimony made the difference.

Blasted auto-correct.

Yep. Choose your alloy according to your intended velocity, and if you want low velocity expansion - keep your antimony content low and your tin content high.

Don

[Lloyd Smale]

what were they shot into? Remember elmer was talking skin and blood not bone. In my experience any expansion at less the 1000 fps on soft targets is iffy. You might get two that expand and one that doesn't do a thing. Im with outpost75. Ive killed a lot of med sized and big animals with handguns from 357s to 500 linebaughs. I will take a hard bullet with a good meplat any day over a hp. You MIGHT get a dramatic wound channel with a hp but penetrations will suffer and in the long run the long straight wound channel of that lfn is going to actually have more tissue damage then the short wide wound channel of the hp. Add to that that deformed bullets can have a tendency to dive. Ive seen them shot into game and about make 90 degree turns. Not what you want on a quartering away shot when you need to punch through to the vitals.

What really turned me off on cast was buffalo hunting one day with my buddy. We both had 500s loaded with hps a friend gave us to try in them. they were cast about dead soft. Both buffalo shot ran off and we chased them both for quite a while. First one was my buddys and he put two more shots in it and we finally put it down with a 44 mag using a hard cast keith. Mine we had already learned and shot it right away with the 44. All the 500 shot showed about 8 inches of penetration and nothing vital hit. Acted like a big parachute. Together we have probably shot 20 buffalo with 500s 475s 45s and 44s. All the rest with hard cast and never had a buffalo need a follow up shot. Only one other then those that was even shot at more then once was the Asian water buffalo my wife shot with my beo using kelly brosts punch bullets. It started walking off staggering and I grabbed the gun and put a second one into it (found out it wouldn't have been nessisary) because that was such a big animal we didn't want to have to move it out of the woods.

Ive shot a number of deer bear and pigs with hard cast and some with hps to just never saw that they killed any better or faster. Just something different to play with. But in the long term I put it on the back shelf where it will stay. I will say though that it could be useful in sub 35 cal rifle bullets. 30 cal cast in my opinion are marginal at best and some expansion is about needed and today we can push them plenty fast with soft alloys because of pc. But to be honest I use mostly jacketed bullets for hunting in rifles.

With all due respect to Elmer, the 3 bullets below all exited the barrel at less than 1,000 fps. On the left, the bullet I like to call the flying ashtray came out of my Colt Gold Cup at about 800fps. The middle .38 Special +P load bullet generated 845fps out of my snubbie, while the one on the right did 940fps. In my hollowpoint testing I have found the alloy to be crucial; low antimony and high tin content does the trick.

Don

[USSR]

what were they shot into? Remember elmer was talking skin and blood not bone.

Lloyd,

My test medium is water-soaked newsprint. I find water alone, as in numerous gallon water containers lined up, just too hard a medium. The water-soaked newsprint is as close as I can come to flesh and blood for testing purposes. I fired some factory Hydra-Shok ammo into it for testing, and the results were as expected.

What really turned me off on cast was buffalo hunting one day with my buddy. We both had 500s loaded with hps a friend gave us to try in them. they were cast about dead soft.

I can't think of a worse bullet to try on something as large as buffalo. Of course it didn't turn out well for you. I would never use a hollowpoint on something as large as a buffalo. However, with thin skinned game such as whitetails, I have yet to recover a .45 hollowpoint fired from my .45 Colt. Big hole in, big hole out.

Don

[Larry Gibson]

I seldom disagree with Outpost75 but have to completely disagree here. My experience is completely the opposite.

As mentioned in other posts in this and other threads the HP design and the alloy used must be balanced with intended impact velocities. A well designed HP cast bullet of proper alloy has proven to be, with a large number of animals killed over the years, considerably more effective than any other cast bullet design. Many such HP cast bullets offer expansion and through and through penetration in game animals. What good does more penetration than that do.....none.

[smithnframe]

With all due respect to Elmer, the 3 bullets below all exited the barrel at less than 1,000 fps. On the left, the bullet I like to call the flying ashtray came out of my Colt Gold Cup at about 800fps. The middle .38 Special +P load bullet generated 845fps out of my snubbie, while the one on the right did 940fps. In my hollowpoint testing I have found the alloy to be crucial; low antimony and high tin content does the trick.

Don

What was the backstop?

[Tripplebeards]

Water is way to hard of a test medium. I spent the summer before last testing HP alloys in water. The ones that looked like perfect mushrooms were shot at 1750 FPS and a little faster. What I thought were the best hunting alloys made big mushrooms with great weight retention (80/20 w/16% pewter) but I soon found out it was a poor choice as this alloy never expanded in three deer I shot back to back with 2 runners that made it over a 100 each before dropping with little to no blood trails. This was out of a Ruger 77/44 with a 265 grain devastator. My 50/50 alloy and 16:1 pure and pewter mixes looked like flat pennies when recovered from my water tests at the same velocities. Those will be the boolits I use for hunting. Imo the softer alloys will rapidly expand causing big holes,tons of shock, and better blood trails for a quicker recovery. I posted the mushrooms, velocities, and alloys used on my home page if anyone’s interested.


These were 44 mag Lyman devastators. Alloy was 100% COWW AC shot out of a 2.5” S&W 329NG with a minimum load of trail boss. I shot them at two pallets stacked together at 15 yards. I found them laying a foot a way from the pallets on the ground. I’m sure they would never expand on a deer, but hard wood yes.



I also shot a rabbit at a 136 yards with the same boolit going a lot faster out of my rifle. It looked like a grenade hit it!


Here are some of my testing posts...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...my-ruger-77-44

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...my-ruger-77-44

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...man-devastator

After shooting a few deer with a non expanding 15.4 BH cast HP boolit that acted like a FMJ my next deer will be shot with a soft cast HP to compare. I couldn’t care less if I loose a little meat in the process as long as my deer drops quicker and in sight...and at 1600 to 2100 FPS if my HP boolit stops in a deer imo the energy is going to slam it to the ground from the shock and energy transfer. Guess I’ll find out this year and eat my words if needed. I have some cast HPs loaded up at top 35 Rem J word velocities. I plan on hunting with them this year or the same out of my whelen if I can get them to group. Larry’s been helping me out with my HP alloy selections. Thanks BTW.

Imo you have to harden or soften your HP alloy to what ever speed and game you plan on using on. If you want it to expand in perfectly in newspaper, water, wood, jell, ect. Imo they need their own BH to perform what we would think is a good looking hollow point with weight retention. But will that same alloyed HP work just as great on a deer, probably not as well as what you think it would as I found out. Sure I’ll still kill an animal just not as efficiently as if you custom tailored the alloy to the load. I’m not a head, neck, or shoulder, or backbone shooter unless that’s the only shot I have. Most of my shots are tight behind the shoulder double lung/heart shots.

I also think it’s how your hollow point is designed as well. IMO a big, deep, wide hollow point with long narrow petals is going to open up faster and easier on a rifle type boolit than a short, fat pistol bullet with a shallow hollowpoint.

I cast bullets going to kill a deer either way whether it expands or not as long as it’s hit in the vitals. IMO the problem arises when you’re not breaking bones and doing double lung shots as I’ve encountered it’s like shooting an arrow with a field point through a deer. They don’t react at the shot because there was zero kinetic energy transfer and then the deer run like the house is on fire being scared from the loud noise from the shot not realizing they’re dead yet. They end up traveling along way before they realize their dead yet I have found out first hand. Not good for me because my deer will travel onto my neighbors property and be claimed by the neighbor or shot again while running “dead on their feet”. That’s fine if I lived on the open plains out west but in Wisconsin when I can’t see 10 yards though my thick woods in spots and there’s no blood trail a hard cast solid is not a good option for me. Im not going to taking head and neck shots. Seen to many so called marksman miss their mark and I have seen wounded deer running around. I’ll take my chances on a cast hollow point because if I can get it to open up it’s going to be a bigger exit hole for a better blood trail. If I was out in Wyoming poking holes through antelope and could see them run across the open plains till they dropped I wouldn’t care. What ever bullet I can use to try and drop them on the spot or within a few feet or yards is what I use for hunting. Watching deer run after being shot I save for my archery season.

Here is my post with pics on my runners...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...my-devastators!!!

[USSR]

What was the backstop?

I took about 12 inches of tightly bound newspaper and soaked it in one of those large plastic bins shaped like a cooler that was filled with water. The water expanded the newspaper to about 18 inches or more. There was no way the bullet was going to penetrate all that, and it didn't. I dug the bullets out of the newspaper, so there was no deformation of the bullet due to hitting a backstop.

Don

[WILCO]

If Elmer said it, then that's good enough for me.

[dverna]

I have a great deal of respect for Ouptost75 and Larry Gibson. Neither gentleman will deceive on purpose, both have more knowledge and experience than most posters on a wide variety of shooting subjects.

That leaves me with knowing they are both correct and incorrect. So who do you believe when it comes to cast bullets for killing things? I am with Lloyd on the subject of bullets for hunting.

Tuning alloy, velocity, meplat/HP is a waste of time and results in questionable performance. Then you need to address getting the "right" bullet to have decent accuracy.

One thing Outpost75 posted is worth repeating...lots of mental masturbation can accompany the quest. Why bother?

Jacketed bullets are more accurate, have greater range, have no lube issues (like fliers) due to temperature, and kill effectively over a wider range of velocities....and they are CHEAP! For a pistol bullet to be used at close range, these "issues" may not matter much but get more important with rifles.

Testing in milk jugs, wet newspaper, pine boards, sand or gell is not the same as flesh. I saw a write up that concluded performance in carcasses was different than in living animals.

KISS. Practice and play with cast...hunt and defend yourself with jacketed if you are using modern firearms.

[Scrounge]

Expansion reduces penetration and is over-rated as a killing mechanism. It may make small caliber bullets of marginal caliber more effective on small animals but may also fail to reach the vitals of large game. I quit using cast lead HPs on anything I planned to eat and on anything larger than whitetail deer 30 years ago and never looked back.

You want a meplat not less than 0.6 of bullet diameter and sufficient velocity that solid bullets of 8-10 BHN alloy will rivet upon hitting bone, and will give through and through penetration.

You also want a bullet which is heavy for the caliber: 170 grains in the .38 Special and .357, 200 grains in the .38-40, .40 S&W and 10mm, 230 grains in the .44-40 and .45 ACP, 250 grains in the .44 Magnum, .455 Eley and .45 Auto Rim and 270-grains in the .45 Colt, at ~1000 fps, will give great penetration and do all that is ever required of a packing pistol.

Anything else is simply mental masturbation.

I think, like all other things, that it really depends on what you're trying to do. I don't hunt all that much. Not because I wouldn't like to, but because I don't have property (or access to such) suitable for hunting. My shooting is, at this time, mostly practice for defense. I absolutely do not want overpentration! My nearest neighbor's house is only 30 feet from my own. The longest sight-line inside my house is only about 30 feet, too. People I care about are frequently on the other side of every wall that I might possibly over-penetrate, and any persons that I might be shooting at and either miss or over-penetrate. It's not mental masturbation to have different needs.

[AnthonyB]

dverna:
I have noticed your dislike of cast for hunting purposes in previous posts. I agree that jacketed bullets can do things that cast cannot.
But it is not an either/or thing for most of us. I am in Alabama, where the most you can see in many hunting areas is around 75 yards or so. Yes, there are areas where sight lines are longer, but I don't have to hunt them.
Whitetails are the largest game animal easily available to me. An RCBS 30-180 HP (custom conversion) will penetrate completly through the lungs of an AL whitetail and leave an exit wound at 1800 fps from any .30 rifle. An RCBS 35-200 HP (also custom conversion) will do the same from the 356 Winchester. Both seem to benefit from HP'ing, although the .35 could probably do without it. But it doesn't seem to hurt. I don't depend on hunting for meat so can pass on anything other that a "good" shot.
My point is that both Larry and Outpost75 are correct. Tailor the bullet to the game and range requirements, and cast will do ALMOST everything jacketed will. I don't shoot cast below .25 caliber because I don't have the patience or need. ARs get Hornady 55 JSP purchased at .07 each. But larger bullets are far more expensive, and I don't "need" them. My carry pistols are loaded with wide meplat WW alloy boolits, again based on my current situation. Feral dogs or rabid small animals are likely my largest concern. Overpenetration is not in my list of worries.
Not trying to be argumentative; just pointing out that cast can do a lot more than you seem to be willing to credit.
Tony

[frank505]

Lloyd, those hollow points from Oaks were huge. We have not killed a buffalo with any hollow points just Keith bullets cast from tire weights. I am very interested in the cup nose bullets and carry those a lot hoping for a worthy recipient. The penta nose in 44 and 45 are excellent varmint blasters.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Expansion reduces penetration and is over-rated as a killing mechanism. It may make small caliber bullets of marginal caliber more effective on small animals but may also fail to reach the vitals of large game. I quit using cast lead HPs on anything I planned to eat and on anything larger than whitetail deer 30 years ago and never looked back.

You want a meplat not less than 0.6 of bullet diameter and sufficient velocity that solid bullets of 8-10 BHN alloy will rivet upon hitting bone, and will give through and through penetration.

You also want a bullet which is heavy for the caliber: 170 grains in the .38 Special and .357, 200 grains in the .38-40, .40 S&W and 10mm, 230 grains in the .44-40 and .45 ACP, 250 grains in the .44 Magnum, .455 Eley and .45 Auto Rim and 270-grains in the .45 Colt, at ~1000 fps, will give great penetration and do all that is ever required of a packing pistol.

Anything else is simply mental masturbation.

Like your perspective. I also like pushing heavier cast boolits. Makes the powder burn better, helps with obturation and gives more consistent velocities..