elmer Keith said you had to have 1000 fps to expand a pure lead hp .44

[LAH]

Lloyd, those hollow points from Oaks were huge. We have not killed a buffalo with any hollow points just Keith bullets cast from tire weights. I am very interested in the cup nose bullets and carry those a lot hoping for a worthy recipient. The penta nose in 44 and 45 are excellent varmint blasters.

I use a cup point bullet in my 357. Can't say it's the same as you speak but I like it better than the deep hollow points. The cup points at 1200 FPS cast from range scrap will blow huge holes through jackrabbits.

[LAH]

You also want a bullet which is heavy for the caliber

Your reasoning for this statement? Penetration?

[44MAG#1]

Elmer Keith was THE MAN. I believed that in the past, I believe that in the present and I will believe that in the future.
But, and it is a big BUT, he didn't experiment in the later years of his life. He shot, and when he did shoot, he shot the 250 "Keith" with a solid point the last many, many years of his life. His speaking on the HP bullets was based on his knowledge of the HP types (designs) and the alloys that he and his buddies used and experimented with at those times in his life when he used and experimented with HP's.
Nothing more nothing less.
Trying to write the rules, concerning Hollow Points now, based on what Mr. Keith said, based on his at the time knowledge of HP's and applying that to todays HP designs is, at best, very careless.
Even with his much valued 1-16 Tin and Lead alloy, the expansion characteristics of that alloy can be changed with the different HP designs we have today.
One must remember that.
Knowledge grows based on experiment and study. As time moves on, knowledge hopefully increases and doesn't get stagnant, as water in a pond with no escape, where no fresh water can enter in to revive and better the old.
Stagnation of knowledge is not good. New knowledge is good as long as it is based on sound and well though out experimentation and thought.

[USSR]

Your reasoning for this statement? Penetration?

Since I also stated "heavy for caliber" in a post, yes, for penetration. When you add weight to a particular caliber bullet you increase the SD value of the bullet which increases it's ability to penetrate further.

Don

[fredj338]

I have a great deal of respect for Ouptost75 and Larry Gibson. Neither gentleman will deceive on purpose, both have more knowledge and experience than most posters on a wide variety of shooting subjects.

That leaves me with knowing they are both correct and incorrect. So who do you believe when it comes to cast bullets for killing things? I am with Lloyd on the subject of bullets for hunting.

Tuning alloy, velocity, meplat/HP is a waste of time and results in questionable performance. Then you need to address getting the "right" bullet to have decent accuracy.

One thing Outpost75 posted is worth repeating...lots of mental masturbation can accompany the quest. Why bother?

Jacketed bullets are more accurate, have greater range, have no lube issues (like fliers) due to temperature, and kill effectively over a wider range of velocities....and they are CHEAP! For a pistol bullet to be used at close range, these "issues" may not matter much but get more important with rifles.

Testing in milk jugs, wet newspaper, pine boards, sand or gell is not the same as flesh. I saw a write up that concluded performance in carcasses was different than in living animals.

KISS. Practice and play with cast...hunt and defend yourself with jacketed if you are using modern firearms.

IMO, no jacketed in handguns are not always more accurate & the same criteria for expansion with lead or JHP/JSP exist. You need a proper alloy & HP design for the vel window. That is not really any diff than JHP. Look at JHP designs on the early 70s, pretty poor performance. You still need to put design thoughts into core hardness, jacket thickness & HP design. Personally, I don't think a JHP will do anything better for hunting than a well designed LHP.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well everyone has their views and their reasoning , Elmer did a lot of testing and shooting and we have all benefited from it , I use hollow points for some things , solids for others , even jacketed , been reloading for 40 years and have found one size never fits all .

[fredj338]

I use a cup point bullet in my 357. Can't say it's the same as you speak but I like it better than the deep hollow points. The cup points at 1200 FPS cast from range scrap will blow huge holes through jackrabbits.

I like cup points for bullets running over 1100fps. They seem to provide uniform expansion & reduce frags. The deep, wide HP is great for bullets under 900fps.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup ill stick to what elmer said. Id bet not one of the 100s of thousand of game animals killed with a keith bullet are anymore dead then they would be if you used a cast hp. A cast hp might kill a thin skinned animal 2 seconds quicker then a keith but a keith or lfn will work on any animal thin skinned thick skinned 20lbs or 2000 lbs.

If Elmer said it, then that's good enough for me.

[Lloyd Smale]

yes the were frank. way to big of a hp. But a guy has to do a lot of experimenting and kill a lot of animals to fine tune alloys and bullets to penetrate enough expand enough and still be accurate enough. Why bother. ill shoot a hard cast lfn or keith and spend my time looking for an accurate load knowing the bullet will always work when I do my part. My days of benching and doing penetration testing is over. Anymore I just want to go to the range to have fun shooting. Want to go hunting? I already have a load for that for all my guns. Only use I have for cast hp is something to play with in the 9s 40s and 45acps. To be honest I have my doubts if even in them they have some big advantage over a good accurate bullet with a flat nose cast hard that will penetrate deep. How you been??? Havent heard from Jeff in a long time either. Is he still kicking?

Lloyd, those hollow points from Oaks were huge. We have not killed a buffalo with any hollow points just Keith bullets cast from tire weights. I am very interested in the cup nose bullets and carry those a lot hoping for a worthy recipient. The penta nose in 44 and 45 are excellent varmint blasters.