Why is the grease groove squished on some of my boolits?

[mvintx]

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This was my first attempt at PC using HF red. The powder is several years old, stored in my barn which is not climate controlled. I have since switched to Smoke's powder. I am more interested in why the grease groove on some of the boolits has been compressed. I am unable to determine which were fired from the pistol and which came from an 8" SBR but I suspect the latter. Velocity from the SBR was 1200 fps. They were recovered from my plastic bucket boolit trap, built from reading the posts here on this website thank you very much.

Now I don't know how to get rid of this thumbnail...

[Tripplebeards]

They were sized(squeezed) down in you pistol when you shot them. Exactly what is supposed to happen. Looks like you shaved off a lot of PC above the lube groove. If you didn’t get any leading I wouldn’t worry about it. But if you did that means your PC didn’t stick good enough or a heavy enough coat.

[KYCaster]

I have to disagree with Tripplebeards.
It looks to me like a severe case of SLUMP.
The bullet in the foreground appears to be somewhat shorter than the ones with the loob groove intact. The nose looks shorter and the meplat wider.
It also looks like the area engraved by the rifling is wider at the front than it is at the base, telling me it tried to slip the rifling a bit before it got spun up to speed.
I think the pressure of the load exceeds the strength of your boolit.

Jerry

[Conditor22]

Too soft a boolit for the load ↑↑↑

[mvintx]

OK, I think you guys have the right idea. Ten of those Lyman 356402 120 TCs were fired out of an AR9 at 1240 fps. They were loaded with 4.0 grains Red Dot. The alloy is 50/50 COWW/PB w/2% Sn. Alloy calculator says about 11 on the hardness. The other boolits fired from my 4" pistol looked normal.

I won't be using those in my AR but I wanted to see how they would shoot. They were accurate as heck.

So what hardness would be appropriate for such a load?

Thanks, Fellas

[Winger Ed.]

They were accurate as heck.

Good accuracy, good speed, and if they don't lead the barrel, I'd keep using the alloy just the way it is.
I don't know what else to ask of a boolit, other than to maybe win a beauty contest.

[Tripplebeards]

I’m still learning but I shoot a 7.8 BH alloy out of my Ruger 77/44 chronographed at 1600 FPS that consistently shoots under MOA at 100 yards with not leading issues. Maybe because mine is gas checked then? I’ve never checked for slumping because my boolit normally is mush or expanded to the point the lube groove are gone when pulled out of my backstops. This the best looking one of the bunch I’ve found.



If it’s accurate and doesn’t lead why change?

If a boolit was seated crooked or entered the chamber crooked it would do the exact same thing as we are seeing...would it not?

[mattw]

I would still be concerned about the loss of PC. I do not see that kind of loss at high velocity, either the coating was not good to start with, or it was underbaked or damaged during seating? I did not save any for photos, my bad, but I am shooting PC GC 22's at 2600 to 2700+ fps and do not have large patches without pc after firing.

[Tripplebeards]

^^^ I agree on PC. Maybe a thicker coat, hotter and longer bake, or try some different brand. You guys know I’m still green but maybe the boolits are way over sized and getting really down sized(squished) when going down the barrel?

Here’s some of smokes red pushed pretty slow in one fo my 44 mag pistols
And sized .001 over...



These were HP casted of straight COWW around 12.5 BH or 13.4...I don’t remember which pile of ingots I grabbed that day to cast with. You can see my lube grooves are deforming but I’m sure it’s do to expansion. I’m guessing these were only pushed 450/550 FPS using a minimum charge of trail boss in a 2.5” barrel. But I didn’t loose any PC.

Did you slug your bore and what are you sizing your boolits to?

Up until the last brain fart I bake mine at 400/455 (depending on which oven I use) for 20 minutes after my PC melts.

The boolit above was clear PC so it’s hard to see the PC...or what’s left.

[mattw]

Rightt Tripplebeards... you are green. With you post count I suspect that is an overstatement. But, those look like a fantastic coat job! I am going to try and stop a couple of my 22's the next chance I get. Maybe a few 2x4's fastened together will stop one or 2 of them intact. My normal backstop is timber, so finding them is not easy.

[Tripplebeards]

Lol. I am...I just like the forum and like to post here. I started casting boolits after visiting this site around 2017. I have been casting fishing lures for over 40 years prior so I wasn’t a stranger to melting lead.

The red ones were shot into two pallets. The boolits were found laying about a foot away from them on the ground.

I have to admit I’m more then a little ocd on PCing my boolits. Came from an art and painting background growing up.

These were the bullets before I shot him and put a gas check on them. I tumble coated them in Smokes PC. To be honest I’ve never made them smoother since. I think I had a really cold, dry day here in Wisconsin when I tumbled these. I try to not PC until it’s about in the negative digits around here and I get a shock putting on my socks. Lol. I think the reason the paint is so thick on these is because this was before I started bouncing off the excess PC build up in a separate container. I’m going to have to see if I can make some thick PC coatings again.




The first powder coating I tried was Harbor freight and I could never get it to stick.

[mvintx]

I appreciate the replies. I won't be using the HF powder anymore...like I mentioned, it was purchased several years before I started doing the PC thing, plus the fact that it is subjected to temperature extremes and I didn't like how it coated anyway. Hate to just throw them back into the casting pot so they'll get used for plinking. This was the first time I was able to recover a cast bullet and get feedback as to how the coating performs.

[Dragonheart]

Your problem is not the powder, or the alloy, the bullets are oversize for the barrel. Just look how the excess alloy at the first band and how it has been swaged to the rear. Note some of the PC is still bonded to the alloy and the alloy was squeezed out from under the coating into the band.

You need to slug all your barrels and size your bullets accordingly. .001" over groove will provide a seal. In my limited Ransom Rest testing with identical PC loads, oversized bullets create a pressure spike, but do nothing to enhance accuracy, in fact to the contrary; oversize bullets created larger groups. With a proper powder coat and proper sizing you can shoot pure lead at 1200 fps. I have a number of 9 mm handguns, all have been slugged using water trapped fired bullets. I size all my 9 mm bullets to .356".

I personally have tried HF powder and all I can say is the best thing HF did for bullet powder coating was to discontinue their powder, but it would work.

[Springfield]

DH: How did you measure the pressure spike in your pistols? Sounds like expensive equipment.

[mvintx]

Your problem is not the powder, or the alloy, the bullets are oversize for the barrel. Just look how the excess alloy at the first band and how it has been swaged to the rear. Note some of the PC is still bonded to the alloy and the alloy was squeezed out from under the coating into the band.

You need to slug all your barrels and size your bullets accordingly. .001" over groove will provide a seal. In my limited Ransom Rest testing with identical PC loads, oversized bullets create a pressure spike, but do nothing to enhance accuracy, in fact to the contrary; oversize bullets created larger groups. With a proper powder coat and proper sizing you can shoot pure lead at 1200 fps. I have a number of 9 mm handguns, all have been slugged using water trapped fired bullets. I size all my 9 mm bullets to .356".

I personally have tried HF powder and all I can say is the best thing HF did for bullet powder coating was to discontinue their powder, but it would work.

I confess that I did not slug the barrel in my AR. The boolits were sized .357" and I fired them only as an afterthought. If there was ever a reason to pick up a .356" sizing die, this conversation has convinced me. I really don't want to keep boolits segregated by size and if .356" will work in both the pistols and the AR, I should at least try.

Pure lead, huh? I just bought some at a recycler for 60 cents/pound. That would make casting alot cheaper.

[Dragonheart]

DH: How did you measure the pressure spike in your pistols? Sounds like expensive equipment.

No expensive equipment if loads are as identical as you can make them and the human element replaced with a Ransom Rest. Yes, a lab scale capable of measuring 1/100 of a grain helps on the loads.
Just examine the case/primers, velocity variations on the chronograph and movement in impact area on the target between groups will show pressure changes. i don't need a number I just need to know did it help or hinder accuracy. Target groups will show accuracy. Handguns are capable of far better accuracy than what most think. It just may take time and a lot of bullets downrange before you find it unless you get lucky.

[Dragonheart]

I confess that I did not slug the barrel in my AR. The boolits were sized .357" and I fired them only as an afterthought. If there was ever a reason to pick up a .356" sizing die, this conversation has convinced me. I really don't want to keep boolits segregated by size and if .356" will work in both the pistols and the AR, I should at least try.

Pure lead, huh? I just bought some at a recycler for 60 cents/pound. That would make casting alot cheaper.

I shoot range scrap and that is not a hard mix usually about 11 bin.

If you don't like hammering a rod down your barrel or have several firearms that need the barrel slugged it may be worth your time to set up a water bullet trap. A large trash can with a small hole cut in the lid works well. Fill the can with water and float a rubber floor mat cut to size on top and lock down the lid. I am referring to these inexpensive lock together foam mats. The mat will keep down the hydraulic splash generated when the bullet enters the water. I usually PC pure lead test bullets and size them 1-2 mills over bore size. A primer alone will not generate enough pressure to allow the bullet to clear the barrel so depending on the powder on hand and firearm you might have to experiment a little, but a half grain is usually enough, All you want is enough of a charge to get the bullet out of the barrel and have the water stop it without damaging the bullet or anything else. A Harbor Freight pick up tool works well for retrieving the bullets as this will be close to 3' deep of water. The sound will be similar to a nail gun. Simply fire straight down into the can, retrieve, measure and save the bullets for future reference.

[mvintx]

I shoot range scrap and that is not a hard mix usually about 11 bin.

If you don't like hammering a rod down your barrel or have several firearms that need the barrel slugged it may be worth your time to set up a water bullet trap. A large trash can with a small hole cut in the lid works well. Fill the can with water and float a rubber floor mat cut to size on top and lock down the lid. I am referring to these inexpensive lock together foam mats. The mat will keep down the hydraulic splash generated when the bullet enters the water. I usually PC pure lead test bullets and size them 1-2 mills over bore size. A primer alone will not generate enough pressure to allow the bullet to clear the barrel so depending on the powder on hand and firearm you might have to experiment a little, but a half grain is usually enough, All you want is enough of a charge to get the bullet out of the barrel and have the water stop it without damaging the bullet or anything else. A Harbor Freight pick up tool works well for retrieving the bullets as this will be close to 3' deep of water. The sound will be similar to a nail gun. Simply fire straight down into the can, retrieve, measure and save the bullets for future reference.

That is a great suggestion. I've wondered about shooting a round into my pool but it's above ground and I'd hate to puncture the liner. But your idea of a reduced load is pure genius. I'll bet it would work with water-filled jugs laid side to side too. I've got some of those lock-together rubber mats for the trash can method. Thanks for the great ideas. Oh, and I've got to order that .356" sizer...

[Tripplebeards]

A plastic 55 gal drum will save a pool liner. There are a few washed up around here from people’s docks.

[mvintx]

Lol. I am...I just like the forum and like to post here. I started casting boolits after visiting this site around 2017. I have been casting fishing lures for over 40 years prior so I wasn’t a stranger to melting lead.

The red ones were shot into two pallets. The boolits were found laying about a foot away from them on the ground.

I have to admit I’m more then a little ocd on PCing my boolits. Came from an art and painting background growing up.

These were the bullets before I shot him and put a gas check on them. I tumble coated them in Smokes PC. To be honest I’ve never made them smoother since. I think I had a really cold, dry day here in Wisconsin when I tumbled these. I try to not PC until it’s about in the negative digits around here and I get a shock putting on my socks. Lol. I think the reason the paint is so thick on these is because this was before I started bouncing off the excess PC build up in a separate container. I’m going to have to see if I can make some thick PC coatings again.




The first powder coating I tried was Harbor freight and I could never get it to stick.

Them are some beautiful boolits.