Does it seem like tyranny to you to order meat packing plants to stay open. Can we really order sick people to go to work? Or people to go to workplaces that are making them sick?Originally Posted by dangitgriff
Yes, is seems we have more than enough tyranny to go around.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
You miss the point.
There is a huge difference between voluntary actions and actions coerced by government.
Voluntary actions = free society.
R/Griff
If you are sick don't go to work. You are not being forced at gun point. National Guard could fill in vacancies if needed. I agree with the President. Keeping our people fed is kinda important.
It's a bad analogy because what quarantine and other measures do is reduce, not eliminate, illness and death. The same as seatbelts reduce death in cars.
I would suggest reading science and not politics. From the beginning, epidemiologists have said that if mitigation and suppression work, it will look like we did this for nothing. NYC shows what happens without adequate suppression, which is hospitals overloaded with Covid19 patients. That's bad news for the guy who had a heart attack during that time. It's also disastrous for the local and state economy.
The hard truth is that there was no good answer. If we had done nothing, there would be more cities and towns with NYC type stats, and we'd have possibly worse economic repercussions. We did something, and the health care system stayed above water in most places, and we are trying to manage the economic consequences, to include re-opening. In other words, we get some measure of control of our circumstances. The other hard truth is that neither the virus nor the economic damage are over, and they may not be for a long time, as in years.
Most people would sooner die than think, in fact, they do so. -B. Russell
The hard truth is what the Federal and state governments have done (and are still doing) is blatantly un-Constitutional.
Full stop.
It’s precisely because most people think what our government is doing is okay that we are in such a terrible place now—enjoying a free trial of communism.
R/Griff
I don't confuse them at all.
Didn't the government just order meat packing plants to stay open when they voluntarily closed to protect their workers.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
I did not see anything about staffing the meat packing plants with the national guard. It certainly is not about people starving. You can be fine eating beans and rice or noodles and sauce or bread and cheese for a few weeks or months.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
So, you accept 40,000 to 50,000 deaths per year, plus 200,000 injuries, from car accidents because at least we're trying to prevent them, even though they still occur? Yet, if we completely banned driving and shut down all the roads, all those lives would be saved. But, you would not accept deaths from a virus that might occur if we open businesses, schools, etc? That makes no sense. And, numbers are science, not politics.It's a bad analogy because...
Why is this so hard for people to understand? Those reported numbers aren’t the full sorry. They are simply the numbers from people that have been tested. They have not tested everyone to know the true numbers. You can extrapolate from the tests done in LA County that Sweden has a high percentage of people that have antibodies. This means they had it and got over it. Those numbers need to be added to the total case number to get the true mortality rate. When you do this the mortality rate decreases.
As an example LA County has 20,976 confirmed cases w/ 1,000 deaths for a mortality rate of 4.7%. W/ the antibody testing the low end estimate for people that have recovered is 250,000. This puts the mortality rate at 0.4%. The high end of the estimate is 500,000 people have had it and recovered. This puts the mortality rate at 0.2%.
The reported numbers aren’t the full story because it doesn’t account for the people that had it and never knew they did. The numbers being reported are meant to keep you in fear. I realize they reported numbers are hard and not estimates. But there’s lots of shenanigans and padded numbers. One county in PA had ten cases added to their total over night but the morgues have no records of these deaths by COVID-19.
If you want to self quarantine go ahead. The rest of us are willing to roll the dice and let life play out as normal.
Just read an article that some virologists on this stuff say it will be with humankind for years to come. There are now 30 documented variants of it. The stuff on the east coast is from Italy and Europe. The stuff on the west coast is from China. All of it started in China, but migrated and mutated thru different paths to reach our shores.
And it was also said that this hope that summer temps will kill it is just wishful thinking. The scientists say it takes 56°C (133F) for a period to effectively kill it. Surfaces in direct sun can get that hot, especially here in AZ! But many places it will never get that hot, even in your car.
Bottom line: we need a cure and a vaccine ASAP! Or we will be fighting this thing for years without them.
bangerjim
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/COVID19/index.htm
Above is link to CDC certified data. Interesting info, the “expected deaths%” is deaths in the 2020 period compared to average of 3 prior years. I think the number being notably lower than the estimated number is data lag due to review and classification as well as reporting lag from states. New York City has 2 times the number deaths this year period vs average of prior 3, much higher than anywhere else, like 2 times higher. Other data shows all causes and flu too. Heavy reading. Seems to be public link, 33,000 now.
“You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos
Thanks for the link. Good stuff.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
It is wise to be skeptical, especially of numbers. That said, taken with a grain of salt the numbers can be helpful in understanding what is going on.
What do you consider normal and do you really expect to find the old normal anywhere. We are entering a new normal.
If the mortality rate is like your low number of 0.2% and everybody gets infected because we end social distancing before we have a cure or vaccine then over half a million people in the USA would die. The price of herd immunity if it could be achieved by exposure to the virus is half a million Americans. Maybe that is what you are hoping for, survival of the fittest since the virus mostly kills the weak, the old, the sick, minorities, those living in crowded cities and the disadvantaged.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
#1 - medical industry is like defense industry, it's about $.
#2 it's an infectious disease. Keep it away and you won't get it! Wear a mask around others so they won't get it from YOU.
#3 cures are about $. Give us $ so we can 'cure' you.
#4 Medical 'staff' is exactly that - staff admin. They are the ones talking and the media regurgitates what they want.
#5 NOBODY paid any attention to info coming out of China and Asian countries when it first started. NOBODY actually took any action until Trump shut down the airline and cruise ships entry! Even though the CDC wrote policy to handle the event (2014) NOBODY was ready.
NOBODY thought to prevent the spread in old folks home, va housing, trains, buses and work spaces. LEAVE it to the FED to solve the problem. How ya liking that?
As she says, can't fix stupid (or greedy).
Whatever!
Get this, I went to my Primary Care Dr. today. He told me that the hospital is laying off staff because all they have for patients are COVID patients and a few other ICU patients. We are a COVID hot spot in a hot spot state but we still have many empty beds and laid-off nurses and such. While we are supposedly in a lock-down everything but schools, salons, bars, restaurants, and movie theaters seem to be open. Hardly anyone wears a mask. Pretty much all the restaurants are doing take-out. The line at Canes is out to the highway all the time.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
The problem with closing packing plants is they buy the animals from the farmers.
When there is no one buying animals the farmers can not afford to feed them.
The farmer end up killing the animals because they can not feed them.
When and if the packing plants open again there will no longer be animals to buy.
A steer or hog does not grow overnight.
So I hope you like ramen noodles because if the plants close you will be eating them for a long time.
I've been saying hospitals are going bankrupt to anyone that will listen. The small hospital I work at has "furloughed" 20 employees and all other hours have been cut drastically! No one wants to believe it. The news media has people convinced we are over run with covid patents, and it just isn't so!
I don't have a problem eating less meat so that meat packing plant workers don't have to work in unsafe working conditions. Only 20% of plants have outbreaks. They should not open until they can either screen workers for the virus or social distance the workers and provide them with masks. My work place is contact tracing, requiring masks and social distancing when possible. Shutting down the plants should have only been a stop gap until better practices could be implemented.
There are farmers and there are pig and chicken factories, and cattle feed lots. I doubt that "real farmers" are killing their livestock. It is not like you have to feed cattle this time of year most places they can graze.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
I have said it before, county run, state backed. Years ago we had them all and costs were high but not 1/3 of your income; maybe higher for some. My employer is telling me it cost them $17,000 plus for my medical insurance. Out of my own pocket about 500 more. These for profit hospitals are burning us and so is insurance industry. Think about what it costs a small business. We baled hay. I use to hire helpers, paid them well 10.00 cash. As I got more money and a family I started to worry about being sued. There's not enough stable cash flow to sir port carrying insurance. We (family) farmed for well over 40 years lot of young people. We are done baling, cheaper to buy it.
They are being threatened with the loss of their unemployment benefits and they don't have sick leave.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
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