~WC867 Duplex Workups In .223~

[Dapaki]

I purchased a nice sized lot of WC867 from Jeff Bartlett due to the low cost per pound ($5.00) and ultimately to see if it would work as a Black Powder analog in my 1" canon.
(more on that later)

Once I had some time to work on some loads, I became very curious about small bottle necked cartridges and if there was any use for such a slow powder as WC867 (I'll just call if 867 from here out). MUSTANG wrote some interesting threads that inspired me even more about the use of the surplus powders in .223 so I took the dive, grabbed some PPE and headed out to the shop for some espeerementing!

I based some assumptions on what I have read and was confident that a case full of 867 would be just fine in my Handi with no issues of handling the charge. I started with 27.3gr of 867 in mixed military brass, sitting on a WSR primer for an analog and to witness for myself what all that nonsense about 'dirty, incomplete burning' was, Phhhppttt! I'll prove you all wrong! (said like Snydley Whiplash)

5 rounds topped off with a LEE 55gr FN boolit PC in Texas A&M orange shot at 50 yards gave me an amazing 5 shot group of 15/16"... OK, a 4 shot group plus a flyer making it an 1-1/8" overall. Still, not to bad from an impromptu lawnchair/folding table shooting bench? The pictures below tell the real story though, shown are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds. The first is not shown since it looked pretty as a penny!



I probably dont have to tell much of a story here but I'll clarify a few things, 1). Yes, that green snot-like stuff is indeed unburndt powder. 2). shot 5 looks pretty darn clean there buddy!

I was pretty concerned about the primers so I neglected to even look at the case necks, after all, beside a case neck split, what is there to get exited about? There it was, all that Mill-Spec green goobery gunk denting my precious brass! By the time I shot the 4th round, I had a hard time getting the 5th to seat when closing the breach. That always gets me a wide eyed and looking down the barrel, I saw what looked like a sewer line with a rolling stream of ugly smoke slowly rolling down the barrel and rats the size of 867 sticking to the walls. Only one way to take care of rats... a snake!

I pulled the snake once and the barrel looked fine so I loaded and fired the 5th round which turned out to be the flyer, ruining my beautiful little group! Here is a peek at the primer, it still has full shoulders and a light bolt face print, which if you have seen the 'fly cutter finish' on most of the Handi's, you know there is no mirror finish on them.



Lookin good so far! On to the second string. This is where I introduced a Kicker to the mix. I started with 3.5gr of W231, not too fast, bulky, will stay put and well, I had it on the shelf. I decided on the weight of 3.5gr based on a lot of in-depth research... of my dipper selection. I would have started with a smaller kicker but this is what I had and with the pressure signs I saw on the primer, I knew I had plenty of room so I felt safe in choosing this amount.

It turns out that indeed, it was fine for pressures, the primer is flattening out some but frankly, all my loads as well as all the military brass shows the same or greater flattening but please, feel free to comment and share your feelings about my selection, the couch is open! (How does zat make you feeeel?)



There is no reflow, the cup has no rim but the pin strike looks to be flat, certainly a pressure sign. The bad thing is the group size at 2-5/16". The case head measures the same as the mild loads and other than the flattening, nothing too concerning but I will most definitely be running downwards with the kicker weight until I see the groups shrink. The recoil was very familiar to a normal FMJ commercial round, the report was a little mild but overall, I could shoot this load all day with no worries, well, worries of hitting anything.

The third string was abruptly ended when I heard a "strange" report from the barrel when shooting the first of five rounds. It wasn't bad or chilling, just different. More like a .22lr than a .223 sound. Loud of course but a higher pitch. The recoil was average and the single shot placed about where the second string started. I opened the breach and the release was a bit harder to push than I like, it could be getting warm by now but 'spidy sense' told me to look at the primer. Sure enough, flattened with some reflow. Nothing to be alarmed about, I have seen primer strikes blown out in commercial shells and rims on strike cups before so I was not too concerned but I sure don't like tempting fate so I closed it down for further research.



Notice I didn't tell you what the kicker was or my load of 867? Well, I wanted to stay at a slightly compressed load to keep the powders from mingling so I started with 27.5gr of 867 in the first string where the boolit base just kissed the powder. The 231 is flake and is not going anywhere in the 30 feet from my shop door to the range so the thought of migration was not a concern. With the second string, I had to push a tiny bit on the powder, perhaps 1/16" and the last string got about 1/8" of compression when seating the boolit.

Now, here is where the little voice that is supposed to start screaming, "Danger, Danger, Will Robinson!" but remained silent as I pulled that first round out of the seating die and for the very first time in about 30 years of reloading, the bullet was slightly cocked to one side... Odd?

I tried the next one and it seated fine, so did the other three, so I shrugged my shoulders and made my merry way to the range to shoot these beauties! I inserted the round, locked it up, cocked the hammer ans sighted the scope, squeeeeeezed the trigger and bang!



I used 3.7gr of 2400 under 27.5gr of 867 and I believe I found the place where you need to stop and go back! I will trickle out 1gr of 2400 and try this again but will reduce the 867 by 1gr (they are both ball powders and the density are very near the same) and see where that puts me tomorrow. The end goal is accuracy, it would be nice if they cycled in my AR but it's not important. What I can tell you is that for $0.02 of powder, $0.02 for a primer ($19.97 after tax for a brick) and field brass under a WW boolit that cost me nothing, I would be SUPER glad to be picking off targets with a 15/16" group IF I could get the kicker to kick out the unburndt powder!

Thanks for reading, I'll be back with stories of the 350 Legend, 7mm-08 and 45-70 soon.

[wmitty]

I have used WC 860 in .222 Rem with the intention of proceeding with duplex loading using 4227 as the kicker, but have not yet done so. The loads with 860 were not satisfactory due to low velocity; but I didn’t have the chronograph with me when shooting them. I suggest using a ladder loading of whatever kicker powder you choose to try I.e. - .2 grain increments of 3 rounds each with a corresponding reduction of the 867 to maintain volume of powder and to prevent running into dangerous chamber pressure. Also suggest weighing your cases to assure minimum variations in volume.

[madsenshooter]

I was working with the 6x45 and an 80gr bullet, but worked up to around 5.5gr of kicker, Blue Dot or 10B101, both of which are about the same burn rate as your 2400. With a smaller bore I can see you getting up to max at a lower charge of kicker. Most all the boosted 860 loads I've chronographed showed low SDs and were pretty accurate. The boosting works pretty good in my Krags too, and I've worked up to 5.7gr of BD or 10B101 with 150gr FMJBTs. A boosted caseful in the Krag ought to give me 2700fps out of the 30in barrel. It works good enough that I bought another 8lbs at Camp Perry a couple years ago. I'll be getting back to the 6x45 soon.

[Dapaki]

Today marks 6 weeks of furlough and I decided to take some time off the 'honey-do-list' to work on another solution. I picked up a pound of IMR4198 and used 4.5gr for the kicker topped with 21gr of WC867 making the powder $0.04 per round, j-words ran $0.064 and primers were $0.02 each for a total of $0.12 each.

These were ran through a mini-14 and all rounds cycled BUT the more shots fired, the further they ejected. Accuracy was fine at 1.25" at 50 yards (Accuracy Rifle Systems barrel with a 1:12 twist) offhand and there were no signs of over pressure as all the primers remained nicely rounded.

Why not run the AR again? Well, it has a 24" barrel and a full rifle gas tube, buffer and spring. It just does not play nice with this powder, too dirty and too low of operating pressure that far out. The Mini-14 with it's piston had no issues operating with dirty powder and even though I did have to run the brush a few more times down the bore, it never hiccuped and always locked the bolt back after each 5 round salvo.

Seeing as I have the honey-do-list whittled down, I will kick up the kicker to 5gr tomorrow and see if I get a little better burn.

Stay safe, keep social (BS) distance.......

[sargenv]

Based on the OP... I picked up a case of WC867 and wanted to delve into the world of Duplexing. Well, I had a good amount of 223 Rem brass (RP actually) and worked up my load data based on the OP.

Rifle used is a new Ruger American in 5.56. 16.1" Barrel. Chrono was set at 10 ft from muzzle.

My load data consisted of:

RP Once fired .223 Rem Brass
Tula Small Rifle Primers (I have a lot of these)
Sierra 55 gr FMJ-BT

and

RP Once fired .223 Rem Brass
Tula Small Rifle Primers (I have a lot of these)
Nosler 69 gr HPBT

I looked around my area and settled on Herco as my kicker. Mostly because I have a lot of it and I figured medium flake, less likely to mix with Ball.

I settled on 3 gr.. Mostly due to it being the minimum my RCBS powder dropper would throw consistently.

I charged 10 cases with Herco, verifying they all had powder in them with a light.

I then put the 867 into my chargemaster and had it run off 26 gr.. well, 26 was a bit too much, so it spilled out. I dumped that case into the waste pile and tried again. I measured out 24.5 gr and trickled that in. The powder came to the bottom of the case neck. I charged the remaining 9 cases and then seated the 55's to the cannelure. Since I was shooting in a bolt gun, I didn't crimp.

I did pretty much the same process for the 69's but decided to go down .5 gr for the 867. I got those seated so that the base of the bullet just compressed the powder column.

Out to the range..

I chrono'ed 5 of each..

55's:

Avg V 2313
Max V 2365
Min V 2284
ES 81
SD 35.8

Group at 50 yards was about 1.25".

69 stats were:

Avg V 2221.6
Max V 2298
Min V 2166
ES 132
SD 49.8

Group opened up a little bit, 1.5-2".

I don't have any pictures of the cases but it seems that the Herco was a good choice as the cases were very clean. They almost looked the same as when I put them in. The primers weren't flat at all. There was a bit of soot on the case neck, but nothing like what I saw above on the first post. Maybe I'll try changing out primers to see if that tightens things up a bit. All in all, I call success on this one.

[Dapaki]

... All in all, I call success on this one.

NICE! Regretfully, I am probably done with working up more loads myself this summer since we got a LOT of concrete poured about 10 days ago and the Mrs. wants a she-shed PRONTO!

Sargenv, please post any other loads you work up, it would be great to start a database on kickers!

[sargenv]

I'll see if I can get back to the garage and try a few different things. I have ample powders available for kickers and a good supply of powder to be kicked. Just need to find the time in between work and loading at home when the garage isn't an oven

[Dapaki]

I am still working with the WC867 and IMR4198, I reduced the kicker to 4gr and upped the 867 to 22gr, still only shooting 55gr boolits, though I think I could try a FMJ to see if I could increase the chamber pressure a bit.

The Mini-14 surprised me last week with a very nice group. most of it was the fact that I sandbagged the rifler well and kept off the stock so it was all trigger finger.

[Dapaki]

I also have nothing in the Herco burn rate range to play with, I have Silhouette and will try some tomorrow if I get the storms they are predicting.

My speeds averaged 2490 though, very nice and just what I was wanting.

[sargenv]

Herco is just a touch slower than Unique.. doesn't everybody have Unique?

[3leggedturtle]

Yis is interesting and useful. Thanks fir posting. I like real world testing and developing, from the 1st hand.

[chic]

I did 223s with 4195. I'm on a project away from home, so don't have the specifics on whether it was IMR or H4195, but they're not drastically different (unless you're at max loads!). Same for the 867/870 (I don't remember which), except you can't get remotely close to max loads in a 223. Using a Pressure Trace, I was getting 40k psi for straight surplus (which surprised me), but unburned powder. With 55gr bullets, 5gr of 4198 got me 50k psi and 5.5 got 55k psi with mil brass. I'm not wanting to push it beyond that. Velocity was disappointing, but it cycled my carbine. I don't remember the amount of surplus powder, but I adjusted it to fill half the neck to ensure compression. My thoughts (no experimentation) are that a slower (than pistol) powder decreases the risk of problems over small errors. I would like to try a powder slower than 4198 to see if it keeps the pressure up longer and helps the surplus powder burn more (for velocity), but I doubt it will have a significant impact. If you try to use primer indications, be sure you are familiar with how the work with other loads, as some are much harder to flatten than others. Military loads are hot and a lot of brass already shows signs (e.g. at least one of Dapaki's shows the ejector).

[chic]

P.S. Be careful using a Magnetospeed with these loads as it will powder blast it.