44 cal. #2 Remington rolling block

[Mk42gunner]

Very interesting thread; I like to read about getting old rifles shooting again, especially #2 rolling blocks.

You are right when you said earlier they are not large rifles and deserve to be used with caution. In my opinion they are just a touch larger than the typical boys rife, such as a #4 Remington, but an order of magnitude higher in quality.

I remember reading in Frank DeHass's book Single Shot Rifles and Actions (which I can't find right now) that the #2 is okay for .32-20, but not for the high speed rifle loads.

I believe the #2 was developed from the RRB pistols, and I have read that the centerfire breech block from one can be used to convert a RF #2 to centerfire. Don't believe it is a simple drop in switch; the firing pin still needs to be moved, and it takes a lot of work to make the extractor function properly. I know because that is the route I took with my .32.

If I had it to do over again I would either convert the original bb to centerfire, or buy one of the new bb castings.

I apologize for drifting the thread, but there always seems to be a lot of interest in #2 Remingtons.

Robert

[ndnchf]

I have #1, 2 and 4s - the #2s are my favorites. I really enjoy the process of getting these old rifles shooting again. I am very respectful of their age and metallurgy. I like to start with black powder loads. It's only after a lot of research do I load any smokeless. The RL7 came in right around the velocity I expected. The Unique load was lower than expected. I may bump that up by .5gr, maybe to 6.0. But I'm more concerned with accuracy rather the speed. I have no desire to go above the load #1 velocity. It's a fun rifle!

[ndnchf]

Perusing the archives, I came across a post describing a couple bullet lube recipes that appeared in a 1943 American Rifleman magazine. One was said to be a factory lube for external lube groove/heel bullet ammunition. Apparently it is a little harder/less sticky than lubes for internal groove bullets. Its a simple recipe and I happened to have all the ingredients on hand, so I made a small batch to try out.

1 part paraffin (in my case, a cheap green candle I chopped up)
1 part mutton tallow
1/2 part beeswax

I'll try to dip lube the bullet of completed rounds and see how it does the next time out.

[Lostinidaho]

I would like to hear how that mixture works.

I have a couple black powders that shoot .515 bullets. My molds don't seem to hold enough lube once they are put in the case.

I have tried dipping the bullets after they are loaded to get a thin coat of lube. Unless it is on the straight side of the bullet I don't think it would help.

But the lube is soft (oil and beeswax) and melts in the truck to the range in the summer. I thought of just using beeswax alone.

I thought paraffin made hard to remove black goop. At least with black powder. But maybe that is not what you are planning to use.

[ndnchf]

This is a harder, presumably smokeless lube. For BP, I use either SPG or my own home made BP lube. Both are softer. I'm going to try dipping the bullets after loading, then wiping the excess of the noses. Probably still be a messy operation. Bernie sells an upside down Lyman lube die set up for doing a finished cartridge. Its probably the cleanest way to go. But then I'd want yet another lubesizer dedicated to this lube. But I could also use it with my 32 Ballard XL bullets.

[ndnchf]

I got looking at a pile of Lyman/Ideal 427098 bullets I cast a while back for a 44-40. Noticing the similarity to the BACO heel bullets I bought, I thought hmmm, maybe I can make them into suitable heel bullets. I put one in the lathe and turned the base band down to .412". That left .150" long heel - the same length as the BACO bullet heel. So I made up a dummy round and it chambered fine. So I turned 39 more

[ndnchf]

Second trip to the range today with this rifle. My goal was to see if the Ideal 427098 bullets that I lathe cut heels on would work. I'm pleased to say they did.

The rifle's groove diameter is .430", the bullets were the same size. Usually I prefer bullets .001- .0015" over groove size. But this is what I had on hand. They were cast of 40-1 alloy, which helps.

They drilled nice straight holes at 50 yds, so I'm very happy with that. The biggest problem is my aging eyes and the original barrel sights. It really seemed to like the Old Eynsford 3F and Unique loads. It grouped well despite the errant shots that are my fault. It does show good potential. I'll make more 427098 here bullets

[ndnchf]

I just got back from the range

I was able to collect more chronograph data. I was particularly interested in seeing what the 3F Old Eynsford would do. Thus old E load is about as close as I can get to the original 44 rimfire cartridge. All these were loaded with a 40-1 Lyman 427098 bullet with the last band turned down to a .412" heel. They weigh 208gr. Shortened .41 Magnum brass was used.

6.0gr Unique, CCI LP primer = avg 973fps

12.5gr by weight Blackhorn 209, CCI LPM primer = avg 847fps

22.0gr by weight Old Eynsford 3F. CCI LP primer = avg 1092fps.

I should note that I dont yet have the collet crimp die from Bernie Rowles. It should be here early next week.

Accuracy has been very good. The Old E load sounded very nice. It's not quite at the 44-40 level. But it's quite respectable.

In case you can't tell, I'm really enjoying this rifle

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello ndnchf,

Just curious, what was the bulk comparison of the 12.5gr Blackhorn 209 & the 22.0gr Old Eynsford 3F?

Thanks, AntiqueSledMan.

[ndnchf]

The blackhorn was a case full, drop tubed with just a little compression, maybe .030". The Old E load was drop tubed with about .080" compression. I can probably get one more grain of Old E in, if I compress a little more.

[Mk42gunner]

Good shooting, especially with the original sights on a #2.

Robert

[ndnchf]

I loaded more 44 centerfire for my #2 rolling block. I'm trying to replicate the original al 44 rimfire cartridge as close as possible. I don't know for sure how much powder the original rimfire cartridge held, but I suspect it was close to 25gr. The most I can get in the centerfire cases is 23gr., and that takes some work. Thats what I wanted to show.

The first image shows 23gr of Old Eynsford 3F just poured into the case from the scale. It starts to overflow the case. No way a bullet can be seated. The second image shows the same exact charge slowly poured through a 24" drop tube. The third image shows that same 23gr, drop tubed charge after being compressed about .075" using a compression die.

After compressing the powder, there is now about .155" between the case mouth and powder. The bullet's heel is .150". This makes a perfectly fitted powder column to the bullet.

Lastly, is the cartridge with the bullet seated and crimped using Bernie Rowles special collet crimp die. This is about as close as I can get to the original cartridge from 140 years ago. I'm hoping the increase from 22 to 23gr and the crimp will bring average velocity over the 1100 fps mark.

[ndnchf]

I really like this original 19th century factory bullet lube recipe.

1 part paraffin
1 part mutton tallow
1/2 part beeswax

It makes a wonderful dip lube because it is not sticky and keeps fouling soft. When dipped, it cools quickly to a thin wax shell on the bullet. I dipped lubed the current batch of .44 centerfire rounds.

[Mk42gunner]

I made some of that lube last winter, but haven't had a chance to try it out yet. I may have to put the rimfire block back in my .32 and try some of the awful Navy Arms .32 Long with it.

Robert

[ndnchf]

What kind of 32 rimfire do you have? I have another #2 in 32 extra long rimfire. With a centerfire block dropped in, its 32 Ballard Extra Long. It shoots very well, but I havent tried it with this lube yet.

[Mk42gunner]

Its a #2 that I have been shooting .32 Colt, both short and long through with a centerfire breechblock from one of the RB pistols. Still had to move the firing pin, so I think I would have been better off just converting the original block.

After some of your posts IIRC I really need to measure the chamber to see if it is the XL or not.

#2's are addicting little rifles though, aren't they? I like them better than the various #4's that I have handled.

Robert

[ndnchf]

Yes, #2s are my favorite. If you measure the chamber, I suspect you'll find it is XL length. Tonight I just started to cut down more brass to make more 32 Ballard XL. 1.15" is considered the standard length which works well with the 299153 heel bullet. But I've gone to cutting mine to 1.085" in order to use the Accurate 31-090 bullet. Jack Harrison sells both bullets.

[Mk42gunner]

I need to order that mold from Accurate. I have some that were sent to me by John Kort years ago. IIRC I used 2.0 grains of 231 for around 800 fps in WW .32 Long Colt cases.

Still dealing with storm damage here so it will wait a few more days.

Robert

[ndnchf]

Back at the range today. This time my loads were crimped with Bernie's collet crimper. The 22gr load of Old E 3F was about 30fps faster with the crimp, averaging 1120fps. The 6.0gr of Unique load gained over 50fps with the crimp - 1031fps.

Going from 22gr to 23gr of Old E 3F only gained me 4 fps for 1124fps. Both Old E and Unique loads were pretty accurate at 50 yds (the limit of my eyes with blurry barrel sights). But I think the Unique load was the best. It was hitting to the right initially, so I kept adjusting the sights. The last group was the best, centered at 6 O'clock.

The 19th century dip lube worked very well. Fouling was minimal and soft, and there was a nice lube star at the muzzle.

A good day at the range

[Scrounge]

I loaded more 44 centerfire for my #2 rolling block. I'm trying to replicate the original al 44 rimfire cartridge as close as possible. I don't know for sure how much powder the original rimfire cartridge held, but I suspect it was close to 25gr. The most I can get in the centerfire cases is 23gr., and that takes some work. Thats what I wanted to show.

The first image shows 23gr of Old Eynsford 3F just poured into the case from the scale. It starts to overflow the case. No way a bullet can be seated. The second image shows the same exact charge slowly poured through a 24" drop tube. The third image shows that same 23gr, drop tubed charge after being compressed about .075" using a compression die.

After compressing the powder, there is now about .155" between the case mouth and powder. The bullet's heel is .150". This makes a perfectly fitted powder column to the bullet.

Lastly, is the cartridge with the bullet seated and crimped using Bernie Rowles special collet crimp die. This is about as close as I can get to the original cartridge from 140 years ago. I'm hoping the increase from 22 to 23gr and the crimp will bring average velocity over the 1100 fps mark.

This might help. It's from the 15th Edition of Cartridges of the World.

.44 Long Center Fire (Ballard)
Historical Notes: The .44 Long Center Fire (Ballard) was introduced, in 1875-’76, as one of
the chamberings for the J.M. Marlin Ballard Sporting Rifle No. 2. It was also used in a number
of other single-shot rifles, including those of Frank Wesson. It was replaced by the .44 Extra
Long CF, and then both were phased out by the more popular .44-40 WCF. It is the centerfire
equivalent of the .44 Long rimfire.
General Comments: This is a more-or-less transitional cartridge from the rimfire to the better
centerfires. Most early breech-loading rifles were developed for rimfire cartridges, and it was
a simple matter to bring out a similar centerfire for the same basic rifle. This allowed the
shooter to reload. However, most of these cartridges were no more effective than the rimfire
they replaced and, so, did not last long. The original load used 35 grains of black powder and
a 227-grain bullet. Muzzle velocity was low—only about 1100 to 1200 fps. As with the .44
Evans Long, Short, or Henry Flat Center Fire, cases can be made by cutting off .303 Savage
cases, but stick to black-powder and cast bullets.