Yesterday's Results with Smoke's Blue

[ChristopherO]

This was the first opportunity to try out PC with the any firearm. This happens to be with the 35 Whelen using 358318 GC boolits cast from range scrap. That is a fairly soft alloy, which I want for hunting purposes. The issue with this new to me mold and range scrap is loading for at least 2,100 fps with traditional lube was giving terrible accuracy and some leading. Not horrible leading but some shards. Still, the hope of better groups propelled me to give PC a shot, literally. On the way I've loaded a number of boolits as paper patched. This thread deals with the PC, as I only had so much time for testing yesterday and the PP shot over the paper target.
Attachment 260541

The shooting bench was not available to use with sandbags and a rock solid rest, so I sat in a lawn chair with cross sticks. Not the best method to obtain world class shot strings on paper, but enough to let me know this is exceeding the traditional lube in the grooves with 41 grains of H4895 in the case. I did see this effect at the case mouth, though.
Attachment 260542
Didn't seem to affect the boolit flight, nor do I see anything amiss in the barrel in the way of leading. A Lyman M die was employed to open the mouth enough to ensure the boolit entered without shaving lead. Also, no crimp on the case mouth was used when seating the boolit. Found it odd that this ring would appear as it did. Is this normal?

As a comparison, the grease lubed rounds were clocking at a 2,151 fps average with 40 grains of powder, so I suspect these were in the 2,175fps ballpark. Not enough time to pull out the chrony. My goal was to shoot some first to see how they would do.
When I fired 5 with the 43 grain powder load there were no traces or signs of PC ringing around the case mouth. Faster appears to remove that from the equation. Again I ask, is this normal?

Attachment 260543
Ahh, the range scrap is exactly what I am looking for when hitting milk jugs at 100 yards. The initial jugs shredded better than the large flat nose 405's do out of the 45/70. It does a heart good to witness that water spray happen. Wasn't certain what this round nose would do. Was concerned it would just pencil through with no real damage. Thankfully, this wasn't the case.

Now, how will the PC hold up at normal hunting ranges at 2,175 fps?
Attachment 260544
Quite well! Found in the fifth jug at 100 yards.
Attachment 260545
This is classic copper jacketed expansion without the jacket. (the 43 grain powder load showed shearing on opposing sides of the mushroom. Same 100 yards and still found in the 5th jug)

I need to bench rest these loads to know better how they will group. My heart beat in the crosshairs was a factor when shooting off the sticks and it wasn't nearly stable enough to gain exemplary groups. But hope has been served that better days are coming with these boolits in the 35 Whelen. It was a fun evening.

[mvintx]

I love it when a plan comes together. Great job.

[bazzer485]

Is the coating getting scraped when you are seating the bullets? Have you pulled one to check? But the coating is certainly staying intact when it’s hitting then target.


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[ChristopherO]

I am inserting the boolit into the case mouth by hand down past the gas check. It isn't a tight fit. That's what has me perplexed. I'll need to be more attentive next loading to see what other factors may be involved.

[ChristopherO]

I am inserting the boolit into the case mouth by hand down past the gas check. It isn't a tight fit. That's what has me perplexed. I'll need to be more attentive next loading to see what other factors may be involved.

Found out this evening that for those rounds showing the blue PC ring at the case mouth, the over all length is the factor. These are just long enough that when the bolt is lowered on a chambered round it is stiff because the boolit must be engaging the rifling. I couldn't switch the safety on. This meant the bolt wasn't all the way closed and/or there was too much pressure on the bold by the case not fitting in the chamber just far enough. Upon examining those rounds after extracting them out it was obvious the boolit had been pushed back into the case mouth causing a slight build up of PC to ring up. Now that I know the culprit I'll address the correct OAL measurement for these rounds and re-seat accordingly. This R&D is one of the highlights of reloading.

[bazzer485]

Just a suggestion, but for the sake of safety have you considered getting a mentor? Ramming a cartridge home until it’s in battery is far from safe, besides that would likely leave the powder coating on the outside. Or is this just a joke?



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[ChristopherO]

As for a mentor for powder coat, that is why I asked the question in the first post and posted pictures. I have loaded many thousands of rounds in the past 35 years but as mentioned above, this is my first venture into PC. This Mauser has a tremendous amount of freebore. Jacketed bullets are seated much longer than these were. These same bullets traditionally lubed have no issue cycling. It wasn't until yesterday evening, the second time shooting a few, that the issue was diagnosed. The pc is thick enough, even though sized after coating to cause the trouble.
Still, your smarteleck reply contained no constructive pointers, helpful suggestions nor mentoring quality to this thread. It only served to make you feel better about your own vaunted knowledge base and to look down on someone who is interested and enthusiastic about a new process to further his shooting enjoyment. Hope you enjoyed your little joke.
In the meantime, when anyone is interested in offering helpful suggestions, that I am very much open to receive, I'll will continue to research, experiment and learn, as I have until this point.

[Tripplebeards]

Looks like your PC either isn’t cured properly and/or scraped off on the case when firing? It still sticks to your boolit very well. What kind of PC did you use? What temp and how long of a baking process? How long did you wait to shoot after PCing?

It almost looks like you PC’d isn’t cured completely and looks like it “gummed” up in you case. If it didn’t lead I wouldn’t be to concerned about it but I’d try another brand or color of PC and see if the PC build up around the case neck when fired disappears.

[cupajoe]

Heck, I think you already got it figured out.

[ChristopherO]

Looks like your PC either isn’t cured properly and/or scraped off on the case when firing? It still sticks to your boolit very well. What kind of PC did you use? What temp and how long of a baking process? How long did you wait to shoot after PCing?

It almost looks like you PC’d isn’t cured completely and looks like it “gummed” up in you case. If it didn’t lead I wouldn’t be to concerned about it but I’d try another brand or color of PC and see if the PC build up around the case neck when fired disappears.

Hello Tripplebeards,
I purchased it from Smokes, who suggested I start with Blue. He is right, it covers very well with minimum effort. It baked between 375 and 400 for 25 minutes, just to be sure. (Used an oven thermometer to gauge the temp). It's been about a week since coating these bullets.
What I noticed last night when checking out three of these in the rifle is that on one the safety didn't want to engage (Military Mauser sporterized that the safety can only be "on" once the bolt is closed) When extracting that round out is when I noticed that the bullet had been set back into the case mouth with the blue ring pushed up at the lip. The PC coating must be thick enough that it caused connection in the bore. As mentioned above, the same traditional lubed boolits have been loaded even deeper without touching the bore. This is an old 358318 Lyman mold. I don't have extensive experience with it as I purchased it from one of the fine members on this board last year.
When I shot these blue boolits for the first time I also tried out a couple paper patched boolits of the same design for the first time. COVID Tinkering so to speak. Those PP where I wrapped paper up on the nose were tight, too. Those where the paper did not extend above the driving band were not tight at all. I'm thinking that this style does not accept too much extra thickness applied above the driving band so I'' keep the paper wrapped up to that point and no further. As for Powder Coating, I'll set back the seating die to accommodate the paint so racking the bolt home isn't causing any engagement of the rifling.

As said, this is all a learning process. I didn't tap extra powder off the lead before baking, as some say they do. Maybe I am baking too much powder on the boolit to begin with. Trial and error
Thanks for your post and questions. They help me navigate through this new field.

[ChristopherO]

Heck, I think you already got it figured out.

I hope so, LOL. Next trip to the range will help find out. As some have said, jacket bullets are boring. Cast boolits are labor intensive, but fetching.
All the best.

[Tripplebeards]

Hello Tripplebeards,
I purchased it from Smokes, who suggested I start with Blue. He is right, it covers very well with minimum effort. It baked between 375 and 400 for 25 minutes, just to be sure. (Used an oven thermometer to gauge the temp). It's been about a week since coating these bullets.
What I noticed last night when checking out three of these in the rifle is that on one the safety didn't want to engage (Military Mauser sporterized that the safety can only be "on" once the bolt is closed) When extracting that round out is when I noticed that the bullet had been set back into the case mouth with the blue ring pushed up at the lip. The PC coating must be thick enough that it caused connection in the bore. As mentioned above, the same traditional lubed boolits have been loaded even deeper without touching the bore. This is an old 358318 Lyman mold. I don't have extensive experience with it as I purchased it from one of the fine members on this board last year.
When I shot these blue boolits for the first time I also tried out a couple paper patched boolits of the same design for the first time. COVID Tinkering so to speak. Those PP where I wrapped paper up on the nose were tight, too. Those where the paper did not extend above the driving band were not tight at all. I'm thinking that this style does not accept too much extra thickness applied above the driving band so I'' keep the paper wrapped up to that point and no further. As for Powder Coating, I'll set back the seating die to accommodate the paint so racking the bolt home isn't causing any engagement of the rifling.

As said, this is all a learning process. I didn't tap extra powder off the lead before baking, as some say they do. Maybe I am baking too much powder on the boolit to begin with. Trial and error
Thanks for your post and questions. They help me navigate through this new field.

I’m guessing what is happening is that most of all your non paper patched boolots are getting pushed back onto the cases when cycling in your action and PC is being scraped off by the case lip. I use a lee full length factory crimp collet die to keep my boolits from moving.

I’d check your max AOL with a fired case and insert a boolit in it. Candle the boolit and inert it into your chamber so the boolit gets pushed into the case and measure. Then back off on measurement al little and make a dummy round to test. I’ve done this with a couple of my Ruger 450 BMs and I still had boolits catching, jamming, and scraping off PC it they don’t go back into the case like you are doing.

I bake smokes PC at 355 for 20 minutes. I know my oven is cooler than what is says it is so I bumped it to 355. I would suggest maybe heat at a lesser temp. Also after I tumble coat my boolits I bounce off the excess PC in a separate container. Your PC looks nice and even so maybe you did this or sprayed them.

I’d tell you to pick up a lee custom factory crimp collet die. I ordered one from lee last winter for my 35 whelen but haven’t use it yet. I’ll load some up this week with it. I’ve found this crimp style tightens up my groups with cast boolits helping with consistent kneck tension.

[bmortell]

I always had the same ring at the end of the neck in basically every bottleneck rifle cartridge, and was a discussion about it on a thread a little while back but i didnt get anywhere. Every idea ive heard i could disprove in my situation. So i still have no clue lol

[Tripplebeards]

I’ve had thin little lead circles laying in fired pistol brass. I believe it’s either from over crimping and my aggressive crimping cut it off or shaved it off when being resized in my barrel. It hasn’t happened for a while. Either way it never affected accuracy and I never had any leading. Might have been from boolits laying around to long and grew after sizing.

If you have a boolit puller load a few up and then pull them. Then load a few more up and then push the boolots down in the necks like they are getting pushed in from jamming and then pull them as well to check if you have any PC that shaved off like in you photo.

[ChristopherO]

"I’m guessing what is happening is that most of all your non paper patched boolots are getting pushed back onto the cases when cycling in your action and PC is being scraped off by the case lip."
Yep, that is exactly what is going on. I know from my jacket bullets that the freebore is a long way up there. But my guess is the ogive for the Hornady's have more clearance along the sides because those never touch and lowering the bolt is slick and smooth. These PC boolits aren't seated nearly as far out as the Hornady bullets but the sides are sure touching along the nose, so it seems. (along with the Hornaday 250 SP's I still have a few old 250 grain RN's in inventory, too, that I've loaded up) Looks like I'll need to test these with the seating depth shorter.


"I’d tell you to pick up a lee custom factory crimp collet die. I ordered one from lee last winter for my 35 whelen but haven’t use it yet. I’ll load some up this week with it. I’ve found this crimp style tightens up my groups with cast boolits helping with consistent kneck tension."

I do have a Lee Factory Crimp Die I use with the Hornady SP's for the Whelen, and I like what it does for the jacket bullets. I was thinking it might be too aggressive for the PC so I haven't used it for this application. Maybe I should put a light touch on the edge of the case mouth, like you do. If setting the PC boolits back remedies the issue I won't, but if it doesn't I will. Many variables in this game.

"I always had the same ring at the end of the neck in basically every bottleneck rifle cartridge, and was a discussion about it on a thread a little while back but i didnt get anywhere. Every idea ive heard i could disprove in my situation. So i still have no clue lol"
That's good to know, Bmortell. Not because misery loves company but at least it is a phenomenon others have experienced and haven't seemed to have issue with it over all.

I appreciate all your input, gentlemen. More testing is in order.

[bmortell]

whatever my guns do its only from firing. and it looks more robust, like its a skirt pressure formed to the end of the neck and you could take it off in one piece.

[ChristopherO]

whatever my guns do its only from firing. and it looks more robust, like its a skirt pressure formed to the end of the neck and you could take it off in one piece.

Yes, I could remove some of the rings with my fingers intact after firing, too. Interesting phenomenon. Maybe in my case I can see the scuff of the paint before firing but, as with your experience, the main ring forms upon firing. Thank you for relaying that information. More to ponder as I try to line these out.

[Tripplebeards]

I just used my lee factory collet crimp die on some 35 Remington. I normally crimp a little harder but it seemed to roll over the crimp groove pretty descent with not a lot of pressure and chambered perfectly.



I cycled one through smoothly without and resistance felt. You can see the microgrooves grabbed a little but my boolit didn’t move.

[ChristopherO]

That's interesting. I hadn't read anything about crimping the PC boolits in my research and thought it would strip the paint off upon firing, which is why I haven't tried it. It sure did grab the boolit but held fast. The ones on mine loads were pushed back in some. I will try this, too. Thanks.
Man, I wouldn't want to be hit with one of those. That should open up on a deer without hesitation.

[Tripplebeards]

The above boolit has smokes clear PC on it so if 8 used a colored PC it would have been easier to see that PC did not come off.



Here’s the same style factory Lee crimp Collett crimp that I used on a 44 magnum. I applied more crimp then the 35 Rem. The 44 mag crimp looks like a perfect, even seal like a turtle neck sweatshirt. I took my groups from 2 1/2 inches with a roll crimp to Sub MOA with this style crimp at 100 yards with my Ruger 7744. You can see I went above my crimp groove and it folded evenly back into it. I cannot seat this boolit out any farther or it won’t cycle. No leading or PC removal at all. I almost want to put more crimp pressure on my 35 Rems As I can see it’s not perfectly sealed down like the 44’s but probably I’ll see how these shoot first since the 35 boolits are not moving when cycling.