Enlarging flash hole

[Don McDowell]

This is just a .02 cent opinion, take it for what it is worth. I have owned and shot a pretty nice Model 1884 Springfield for about 30 years. All but about the first 10 shots have been loaded "by the Book", Spences' book. Those Springfield rifles were made to bet you life on, not shoot rifle matches while laying on a mat, with a spotter, taking fouling shots, performing CPR on your barrel between shots, waiting for the wind, etc. which is what the "2nd generation BP match shooter" is familiar with.
If you want to shoot a rifle match more in keeping with the intent of the Springfield rifle and Spences' book, shoot an over the course High Power Match with one someday. The 200 yard rapid fire, 10 shots sitting (starting from the standing) in 60 seconds and 300 yard, 10 shots prone (starting from the standing) in 70 seconds phases will prove the wisdom of the original design for the intended purpose. To be able to keep on shooting in a hurry with a fouled barrel.
About 25 years ago, I attended a High Power match in Great Falls Mt. It was a special event they did called the "pick your war match" as I recall. You could use any US service rifle except gas loaders or any foreign service rifle including gas loaders. All to be strictly as issued, with service equivalent loads, no match grade guns. Out of 15 or 20 shooters it was won by a shooter with a 03a3 (no surprise there). I shot the only single shot and the only BP (405 grain bullet and 70gr. FFG) and finished with a score in the middle of the pack. I got off all shots and had no misses. I don't think that could be done with loads like most BP match shooters consider necessary to good shooting. All of which is not to knock one type of shooting for another but just to say apples are not oranges.

I'm not sure where this bit about match rifle comes in... But having grown up shooting the dang things, since the early 1960's the first time I ever heard of enlarging flash holes was just a few years ago on the internet...
As I said in previous posts if a person is loading unmotivated winchester brass, black powder and bullets from the original Ideal moulds, achieving the velocity and accuracy specs of the US government, I'm just not sure what more could be accomplished by wrecking cases..
I guess at this time the proper thing to do is to acknowledge we have different ideas, experiences and opinions, and leave it at that.

[Lead pot]

I shot drilled out flash holes but not as large as .096" that Spence said. I shot them in my trapdoors for a short time using black powder and the large firing pin they have blew the Remington large rifle primers I used back then. I can't even imagine what they would do using smokeless.

There was a time I used to uniform the flash holes for my match loads and I would take the largest number drill bit that would fit the new batch of cases and use it for all the new cases and it was a .072" that would just go through my cased.
Did it make a difference with accuracy?? not that I could see, but it's the confidence in the load that helps.
If you want to do something for the cases uniform the case neck thickness so the bullet release is the same.

You don't need oversized flash holes to shoot black powder with out fouling control. Just use the right lube and the proper bullets and that will let you shoot as many as you want.

[Chill Wills]

Am reading Spencer Wolf's book on loading cartridges for the original 45-70 Springfield rifle. He recommends enlarging the flash hole to .096 diameter. Is it necessary/recommended to do this? Thank you

To the OP,
There is some confusion here by a few posters with target rifle loads and putting up the two service rifle loads M1873 and M1882 with correct bullet and velocity using resources we have today. Namely modern cases and today's powder and primers.

If you are replicating the original M1873 and M1982 service loads today with the intent to shoot dirty, meaning NO fouling control like the the rifle was intended as issued, you can follow the detailed loading in the Wolf book or you can use a powder he did not have access to. That is the Swiss made BP. He was done and the book out before the 1999 Swiss gunpowder arrived here and in turn the use of regular large rifle primers with standard flash holes. The change to Swiss powder, with the greater density fills the case with a heavier more energetic fuel that shoots cleaner with less compression and produces more velocity than that of even the best lots of GOEX coming out of Mosic, PA could not equal.

I am saying very clearly the answer is no you don't need to modify your cases to make original 45-70 Springfield ammo and shoot dirty with the accuracy the army had in the 1870's. The reason we can do that now is the better powder available to us like they had in the 1870. The reason Spencer Wolf had to jump through the primer hoops was the lesser quality of the average lot of GOEX at the time of his work. He did the best he could and found a way to make it work. A "work around" if you will. In my opinion he did a very good job and his book has been more than a little helpful to many of us back in those days.
My first Springfield was a beater obtained in 1983 and boy howdy I did not have a clue how to get going other than replace the smokeless powder with a full load of Black Powder. Alox and all. There are a lot more resources today than 40 years ago. There is more than one right way to do things. Sharing info is why I am on this sight. Having straw-man arguments mis-characterizing what was not said is hurtful to the process.

Respectfully, Michael Rix

[patio]

Thank you to all for the responses. A lot to digest.

Regards,

Pat

[Outpost75]

When I was on the Technical Staff at NRA I fooled with several original 1884 Trapdoors using enlarged flash holes to 0.096 and 0.120" loading Army A5 black powder which dated from the pre-WW1 period. We cast bullets from 1:40 tin-lead from a period mold, and bullets were bumped in a hammer-swage to form a cup base and bring diameter up to .462". We did most of our shooting at 200 yards. The enlarged flash holes were more accurate with BP and gave less vertical dispersion.

[patio]

To the OP,
There is some confusion here by a few posters with target rifle loads and putting up the two service rifle loads M1873 and M1882 with correct bullet and velocity using resources we have today. Namely modern cases and today's powder and primers.

If you are replicating the original M1873 and M1982 service loads today with the intent to shoot dirty, meaning NO fouling control like the the rifle was intended as issued, you can follow the detailed loading in the Wolf book or you can use a powder he did not have access to. That is the Swiss made BP. He was done and the book out before the 1999 Swiss gunpowder arrived here and in turn the use of regular large rifle primers with standard flash holes. The change to Swiss powder, with the greater density fills the case with a heavier more energetic fuel that shoots cleaner with less compression and produces more velocity than that of even the best lots of GOEX coming out of Mosic, PA could not equal.

I am saying very clearly the answer is no you don't need to modify your cases to make original 45-70 Springfield ammo and shoot dirty with the accuracy the army had in the 1870's. The reason we can do that now is the better powder available to us like they had in the 1870. The reason Spencer Wolf had to jump through the primer hoops was the lesser quality of the average lot of GOEX at the time of his work. He did the best he could and found a way to make it work. A "work around" if you will. In my opinion he did a very good job and his book has been more than a little helpful to many of us back in those days.
My first Springfield was a beater obtained in 1983 and boy howdy I did not have a clue how to get going other than replace the smokeless powder with a full load of Black Powder. Alox and all. There are a lot more resources today than 40 years ago. There is more than one right way to do things. Sharing info is why I am on this sight. Having straw-man arguments mis-characterizing what was not said is hurtful to the process.

Respectfully, Michael Rix

Thank you Michael for your post. Shot this group today. 50 yds, 5 shot. 4 together, 1 flinch. My goal is to duplicate the original load. I used 70 gr Olde E 1 1/2 compressed to a depth of .650-.655 from the case mouth, cast 40:1 Lyman 457125 lubed with Randy's Tac black lube, R-P cases with flash hole drilled out, medium crimp, Old Winchester LRM primers from the DCM (they are hot), cartridge oal of 2.768. Fowling and leading was not bad at all.

[Road_Clam]

I experimented a few years ago with flash holes opened up to 3/32 and didn't notice any measurable difference in accuracy or consistiency. Interestingly what i did observe was a consistient increase in fps (about +22 fps) with the 3/32 flash holed brass. I tested using the 405 RNFP , Goex 2F, and Starline brass, and testing with a Magneto Speed crono.

[Carrier]

To the OP,
There is some confusion here by a few posters with target rifle loads and putting up the two service rifle loads M1873 and M1882 with correct bullet and velocity using resources we have today. Namely modern cases and today's powder and primers.

If you are replicating the original M1873 and M1982 service loads today with the intent to shoot dirty, meaning NO fouling control like the the rifle was intended as issued, you can follow the detailed loading in the Wolf book or you can use a powder he did not have access to. That is the Swiss made BP. He was done and the book out before the 1999 Swiss gunpowder arrived here and in turn the use of regular large rifle primers with standard flash holes. The change to Swiss powder, with the greater density fills the case with a heavier more energetic fuel that shoots cleaner with less compression and produces more velocity than that of even the best lots of GOEX coming out of Mosic, PA could not equal.

I am saying very clearly the answer is no you don't need to modify your cases to make original 45-70 Springfield ammo and shoot dirty with the accuracy the army had in the 1870's. The reason we can do that now is the better powder available to us like they had in the 1870. The reason Spencer Wolf had to jump through the primer hoops was the lesser quality of the average lot of GOEX at the time of his work. He did the best he could and found a way to make it work. A "work around" if you will. In my opinion he did a very good job and his book has been more than a little helpful to many of us back in those days.
My first Springfield was a beater obtained in 1983 and boy howdy I did not have a clue how to get going other than replace the smokeless powder with a full load of Black Powder. Alox and all. There are a lot more resources today than 40 years ago. There is more than one right way to do things. Sharing info is why I am on this sight. Having straw-man arguments mis-characterizing what was not said is hurtful to the process.

Respectfully, Michael Rix

Good post Chill as there seems to be many who throw Spence under the bus and dismiss everything he did. Following his book I was able to get my original 1873 shooting pretty good though I use a lower charge for most shooting now but like to let it roar with the full loads of his.