I bought the argument on "mim" parts for some time and then I bought a .45 that had them and I got my views changed a little. That .45 is one of the slickest revolvers I have ever owned. It not only has "mim" parts but the key lock(gasp) also. Time will tell on how they wear but so far I am for giving them some slack because of this .45. We will see how it goes in the future. james
Last year I was wandering thru a gun shop in Great Falls Montana and spied what I thought was a 10-6 heavy barrel 4" 38 Special. I asked to look and indeed it was a 10-6. When I rolled the gun over to verify the chambering, 38 Special or 38 S&W; I found it was marked for 357 Magnum. Factory markings, no aftermarket in any way. I bought it and brought it home with me. Indeed it is a 357, blue, 4" HB model 10-6, fixed sights and all. Research pointed me to the early 1970's and New York State Police, special contract to S&W for 1200 Model 10-6 chambered in 357 Magnum...It was that contract that induced S&W to bring out the Model 13.......4" HB 357, end of story. I contacted S&W and was told that my 10-6, 357 was in the serial number range of the NYSP contract. Really a good shooter, as all Model 10's are.
But it is an interesting find.
Guesser-- that's definitely a good one to have in your collection. Not that many made, and not many distributed outside of N.Y.
I've owned 3 different older model 10 guns (I don't recall the dash numbers?). All were police trade-in guns...one was a German military police re-importation gun.Originally Posted by 6901
No one mentioned this, maybe because it's too obvious?
But if you are looking at Model 10 guns, older than 20 years old, then they could likely be police trade-in, then it's much more important to understand what to look for, in regards to heavy use and being worn out, than a specific time frame of manufacture.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001
James,
I also have a newish 45, Model 625-JM, Mim parts, lock, and the new style 6 groove EDM rifling. I'm trying to love this gun, while I don't hate it, it sure ain't as lovable as my older 625-8 that I swapped for the 625-JM.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001
Rockwell hardness tester doesn't lie. Check a few dozen frames and cylinders yourself and then post the results. Or just run 1000 rounds of +P through one and measure the barrel-cylinder gap and end-shake before and after.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Sir I believe I asked you a legitimate question. I realize you are the self proclaimed genius of all thing Ruger, S&W and Colt Revolvers. If someone has a different opinion you tend to get up on your high horse to prove you are superior in experience and knowledge. I respect your experience but your responses seem to "talk down". Your last response to a PM from me was also condescending with your "DUH" comment ! Your "research" stated that S&W Revolvers need retiming, restoration of cylinder gap and restoration to minimize end shake much sooner than many of us have experienced. I know you are a Ruger Fan which is great but some prefer S&W or Colt. Did S&W change, modify or improve heat treatment from the 10-4 to the 10-5 ? If all of us would feed our revolvers with the ammo they were designed for your assertion would be mote. If you desire magnum performance from a 38 Special then do yourself a favor and buy a 357 Magnum.
I certainly expect a terse response and maybe a time out for stating my opinion about a sacred cow.
rick
As I understand the radius stud package, S&W started machine a slight radius to the hammer and trigger studs to facilitate easier assembly. The other changes were to aid in keeping the cylinder "in time" while shooting heavy loads. I am almost sure that they named it "the endurance package" because it sounded a lot better than saying we upgraded a gun and giving the impression that the previous guns were substandard, which I, for one do not subscribe to. Now, with all that out of the way, I have never had a problem with a broken stud nor do I know anyone who has broken a stud on a radiusd S&W revolver. I am sure that some where , some how, some one has broken a stud but they were probably running the action with the side plate off-my assumption only. I have 2 revolvers with the new package and I recommend them based on my lack of problems.
Again, as I understand it, some people were having problems with the cylinder unlocking and turning under heavy recoil. I have never seen this personally and my 29-2 was my IHMS gun and it had over a thousand rounds of handloads that I would be afraid to reveal today. The new hand was supposed to eliminate this. Thankfully, my creator has let me live long enough to be wise (depending upon who you ask) enough to refrain from bazooka level loads.
IT AINT what ya shoot--its how ya shoot it. NONE of us are as smart as ALL of us!
Many of these Model 10's are police trade in units from foreign countries. The few that I have seen recently showed a good bit of external wear, but the internals were still quite good. Carried a lot but fired little. CAI is a major importer of these Model 10's, and their grading has been pretty spot on from what I have seen. If you order one in VG condition, that is what you'll get.
Outpost75 simply let you know without wasting lots of time and bandwidth that those early S&Ws were not as durable as the later ones. It's not hard to discern that higher Rockwell hardness in a revolver of any brand is going to (generally) last longer. I've been around a long time, have used many revolvers and autopistols professionally, trained internationally and seen a couple of million rounds downrange from service weapons. I've worked in the industry and still do and have found Outpost75 approachable, friendly and without a doubt the most knowledgeable guy I've encountered in that community and industry.
Colt's Manufacturing Company Armorer Instructor
Aimpoint USA L/E Pro Staff
Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)
Murf, I also have never seen the radiused studs cause a problem, and I said so. My *minor* point was simply that the radiused studs are not desirable. They offer no advantage to the owner of the gun. All this was up front in my post, so I don't know what you are upset about.
Hey, my friends, let's all take a deep breath and one step back. After all we share more similarities than differences, and those are usually minor and of no consequence as to whether the sun will rise tomorrow or not. So, here's some of mine for your viewing pleasure. Click to enlarge:
The top one is not a 10, the middle is a 15 and lower a 10, and in great shape. Purchased about a year ago.
These are old time police guns. The top one probably belonged to a San Francisco motorcycle officer, and the bottom one with the pearl-like grips to a Chicago homicide detective. Both have their owner's names on them.........
I bought this one new in about 1966, and it's still NIB unfired. Can you read the price tag? It just worked out that way, and now after so many years it's worth more the way it is.
I've owned a small pile of K-frames over the years and many of them were model 10's. A model 10 is an iconic gun.
I wouldn't go too far back in history if I could avoid it. The reason for that advice is partially based on what Outpost75 stated (the hardness of the frames/cylinders gets better along the line) and because of parts availability. While all models 10's are basically the same, they are not exactly the same. Left and right hand threads for the ejector rod, 4 screw verse 3 screw side plates, the type of screw that retains the yoke, the location of the gas ring, etc.
For me, a dash 5 is a good place to start. From dash 5 forward you're dealing with a fairly modern gun. Even and odd dash numbers denote heavy verses tapered barreled models at dash 5 and the frames are tougher than the very early versions.
If someone gave me a very early model 10 I wouldn't turn it down but if I was spending my own money, I would probably be looking at a dash 5 or newer.
I don’t keep fixed sight guns but the S&W m10 is the best DA revolver ever built. S&W built on DA revolvers which put them ahead of Colt. I have a small hoard of S&Ws. All blue and all P&R era guns. I don’t mind non pinned barrels but you can’t sell me on MIM parts in any gun. You are just fooling yourself if you think they will hold up like milled parts. I only keep adj sight models in 38sp got m14s, M15s, and one M&P Target the father of m14 (K38) I get quite a few m10 but use them for trade bait. Most are 4” with occasional 6” or snub.
Fixed sight service guns will usually shoot to point of aim with a standard service load for the caliber. A common practice was to target .38/.357 guns for normal commercial production with wadcutters, as these were accurate and also provided a practical check on charge hole - barrel alignment, to detect "spitters" which either over-rotated more than 5 degrees of TDC or didn't carry up (factory repair code is DCU) in DA.
Vertical point of impact in revolvers is determined more by bullet weight than velocity. Heavier bullets tend to shoot higher, lighter bullets lower because a hand-held revolver in recoil is a pendulum and projectiles having a lower recoil impulse and shorter bore time leave the muzzle at a lower angle of departure than a heavier bullet having greater recoil impulse and lower velocity which increases bore-time which permits the gun to rotate more in the hand before muzzle exit.
Horizontal point of impact can vary with differences in recoil impulse, grip and manner of support, whether the gunner is right or left-handed and is he or she executes a correct "row the boat" straight through DA trigger stroke, or if side-pressure is applied to the trigger by a novice who is "staging" it. It is not at all unusual to observe as much as 3" shift in windage between shooters and loads, Depending upon how the gunner grips the gun, how the gun moves in recoil, and the particular load.
FIXED SIGHT GUNS ARE HIGHLY INDIVIDUAL! But once you settle on one load, one gun, one shooter, and tweak the gun and load a fixed sight gun is far superior for rough duty, severe service.
In typical 3" to 4" fixed sight service guns wadcutters will shoot approximately to point of aim at 20-25 yards, 158 grain lead +P a bit high, but still in the ten-ring of a B15 repair center, and 125-grainers mostly in the lower edge of the ten and 9-ring at 6:00. Contract revolvers for the Feds or large police departments would be targeted with ammunition provided as government furnished material as required by the contract, and the correct height of front sight installed, or if integral on the barrel forging, it would be machined to exact height to correct POI as needed to make the spec.
Usually a ten-board of guns would be shot, the needed sight correction determined, then all of the guns assembled alike. In the 1980s typical targeting was done by the gunner firing hand-held on sandbags, aiming at a 2" black at 20 yards, or a 2-1/2" black at 25 yards (one inch per ten), having a 4" circle at 20 yards or 5" circle at 25 yards tangent at 6:00 to the black aiming point. For normal production all six rounds had to strike within the outer circle. If the fellows in the barrel shop were doing a good job most revolvers would put 5 of 6 shots into the black aiming mark.
Windage correction was acomplished by turning the barrel a wee bit by striking the barrel lug with a babbit bar. The fellows who do this for a living are highly skilled at it and any factory trained cop armorer back in the day could correct your duty gun as needed to get it "on" with your department ammo.
Adjustable sight are great for target shooters and hobbyists who like to experiment with a multitude of different loads, but many old school dinosaurs who still carry wheelguns afield prefer fixed sights which won't move if inadvertently dropped or shaken loose from heavy recoil. Indeed, my adjustable sight S&W Models 28 and 29 once zeroed, get flooded with blue 242 Loctite to stay put.
And for the record ALL of the adjustable sights on my Rugers are replaced with Bowen Rough Country sights which are adjusted and Loctited as above, because the Ruger adjustable sights are fragile and not to be depended upon and YES, you may quote me on that.
Last edited by Outpost75; 04-09-2020 at 09:20 PM.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Its easy to put down certain versions of an individual model of gun down in terms of fit and finish, and even metal quality or heat treat if you want. But there are SOME things that cant really be forgotten here.
Its American made, and its a Smith and Wesson, what cant you love? If its maintained right, treated right, fed the right ammunition, its a dependable gun. There are many guns on the market such as charter arms, rohm, raven, phoenix arms, bryco, armscor/rock island, that DESPERATELY wish they could have the fit and finish and quality of what you guys would call
an "undesirable" dash number model 10. The ONLY things to consider when dealing with ANY police trade in gun, or revolver of the possible age a model 10 can be are this:
1. some model years will have better finish due to being war time production.
2. heat treating, machining, etc. its ok. its a smith. SMILE.
3. Some models can only use designated 38 special ammunition. Others can use ammunition from buffalo bore and "38/44" level. As others have said over the decades, if you think or feel a cartridge case a 38 special head stamp is going to be sufficient for all of your needs. Get a gun marked as .357 magnum.
4. Police trade in guns are a double edged sword. Many have had the actions made DAO, front sights machined down to adjust poi/poa with a SPECIFIC load data you don't have access to. And many are not in usable condition. Seen enough customer reviews from jg sales police trade in guns where "good condition"and "very good condition" can mean split forcing cones, broken sears, bulged and split barrels.
5. Depending on AGE, you cant expect to get replacement parts for them anymore. That's the main draw to get the newest gun you can that doesn't have a Hilary hole
I was issued a Model 10 in '76. I hated to give that one up. They gave me a Model 64 to replace it. Both were good as gold to shoot.
I've never really understood this line of thought. Why would anyone shoot that much +P??
My Dillon 550 right now is set up to load 155-ish gr. SWC's (H&G 51) to 900-930 fps out of my 10's and my 15. I shoot lots of these loads firing them most evenings after work and on weekends. Through these same revolvers I've tested a lot of loads that run a 170 SWC (Lyman 358429) a bit over 1000 fps as well as 150-ish gr. cast SWCHP's a bit over 1050 fps. But I see no reason to shoot these loads over and over. They're saved for hunting and self defense. Also FWIW, C.I.P. (Europe's version of SAAMI) doesn't recognize a +P .38 Special load, rather their maximum pressure for the cartridge is 22,000 psi. So one can only guess what some of these 10's that were issued to overseas PD's had fired though them.
This x10.Adjustable sight are great for target shooters and hobbyists who like to experiment with a multitude of different loads, but many old school dinosaurs who still carry wheelguns afield prefer fixed sights which won't move if inadvertently dropped or shaken loose from heavy recoil. Indeed, my adjustable sight S&W Models 28 and 29 once zeroed, get flooded with blue 242 Loctite to stay put.
And for the record ALL of the adjustable sights on my Rugers are replaced with Bowen Rough Country sights which are adjusted and Loctited as above, because the Ruger adjustable sights are fragile and not to be depended upon and YES, you may quote me on that.
A well made revolver doesn't shoot left or right, the fella running it does. When I first got in to handgun shooting, specifically SA's, "they" all shot left and I was constantly messing with the front sights trying to correct windage. I FINALLY figured out that I was the problem. Once I learned how to shoot, the revolvers, with the exception of one Ruger Police Service Six whose barrel wasn't sufficiently tightened when assembled, they all started shooting straight.
A wise old SA shooter on another forum told some unbelievers, the next time they were at a gun show, to notice the position of the rear sight blade on used revolvers. He allowed that they would find most of them cranked over to the right to make up for improper grip/trigger pull. Since I rarely go to gunshows, I chose Gunbroker and browsed dozens of used revovlers, looking at their rear sights, when possible. In no time at all I had found a dozen with their rear sight blades positioned right of center.
35W
The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn't care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions.
There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand.
NRA Life Member
I'm on a couple of notification lists for trade in m10s. I want at least one pencil barrel 4". No one has any right now it seems. I just gave my oldest daughter my m15 Combat Masterpiece. The K frame is my idea of a DA revolver, period.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
My model 10 is a 5 screw 2'' with the square butt. I just looked at it and it has the serial number on the frame and the crane, but I don't see a model number....
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