Lanolin and powder coat surprises

[igolfat8]

There was a thread recently about lubing coated bullets which is something I had never intentionally done or seen the need to do. I am an avid pistol competitive shooter, going through 15-20K rounds a year. Shooting production and open with Smoke’s powder paint has always done a great job for me. I do get a small bit of residue in the first inch and leade of the barrel but the rest remains clean as do my comps on my open pistols. If I could change anything it would be to get rid of the carbon or paint smearing in the leade of my barrels.

After reading the thread about lubing PC’d boolits I decided to give it a try. After I had sized my pills, I liberally sprayed them with my home made case lube of 12:1 of HEET and lanolin, shookem in a Cool Whip bowl and spread them out to dry. I loaded them up and ran them over my Chrono. Then went home to clean my pistols and review the data.

After inspecting my barrels, to my surprise, they were clean as a whistle from chamber to crown. My comps were equally clean as well.

Now, to the second surprise ... Chrono results were even more unusual. The numbers were all over the map with extremely high SD and spreads wider than I have ever seen. I loaded 95 NLG, 115 NLG, 120 LG and 124 tumble LG bullets. All single coated with Smoke’s powder, sized to .357, all the same alloy mix and aged for 2 months. Same alloy, paint, size and aging that I normally run in my pistols. I have run these loads multiple times over my Chrono with very similar numbers. The only change to the recipe was the addition of the lanolin. ALL of the average velocities were down significantly, at least 100 FPS and some as much as 190 FPS on my open loads. The spreads were very inconsistent and as I was shooting it was like shooting puppy fart loads mixed with some hot loads. I knew something was amiss as I was shooting based on sound and felt recoil. ALL of the loads exhibited the same tendency with extremely wide variation.

I coated the bullets pretty heavy with the lanolin but it was completely dry when I loaded them. I used multiple powders (TG, BE, Sport Pistol, WSF and SW Major Pistol) so it’s not unique to only 1 powder. I went through about 800 rounds during testing. I’ve used the same 12:1 mix as case lube and never experienced anything like this before. Since only the base of the bullets were exposed to the lanolin, I find it hard to believe it’s reacting with the powder.

I considered that I might be experiencing bullet set back, due to more lube on the bullets but I ruled that out after reviewing the Chrono data. If it would have been set back then the higher velocity would likely have been always after the first shot but I did have some spikes in high velocity on the first shot but not consistently.

Anyone have any ideas what is going on?

[Traffer]

Can't say off hand I know what happened but, you have some very valuable experience there and thank you for sharing. It would appear that those like myself who size or swage after powder coating should be careful to NOT let any residual lanolin stay on the bullet. I never paid it any mind before.
I guess we will now have to revisit the physical properties of lanolin and how it holds up to heat and pressure to figure this one out.
Edit:
I guess it could have to do with the crimp being inconsistent because of the lanolin also.

[tomme boy]

You made them slippery. More than PC bullets normally are. That was why the ES was all over the place. Don't do that anymore.

[igolfat8]

Traverse, I did not make any changes to any of my dies other than to adjust the bullet seating depth when changing bullet profiles. I load on a Dillon 650 and have made no changes there or with primer brand. The only thing that has changed is the addition of lanolin to the process, so it sort of points in that direction. It’s not definitive but merely confusing at this point.

[igolfat8]

I concur Tomme Boy. They were certainly slipperier to the touch. I actually expected that the velocities would have increased too but quite the opposite because all of the velocities were considerably lower with the addition of the lanolin.

[Traffer]

If the neck tension on the crimp does not hold them in the correct amount of time, it will affect the burn of the powder. That would give you the very erratic results.
I have to deal with crimp-hold weights in working with trying to make accurate consistent shooting 22lr. In the book "Ammunition Making" by George E Frost, the author devotes a chapter to the development of match grade 22lr ammo. He dealt with the transition from black to smokeless powder. He had to experiment with "pull weight" to get the right amount of containment pressure to most efficiently burn the smokeless powder in the rim fire cartridge.
Although it is less of an issue with center fire, probably because of the much thicker cases and hence more consistent "pull weight", It is still a critical factor in the burn characteristics of the powder.
I know from experience how much difference lanolin case lube can make cutting the friction between bullets and cases.
That is what prompts my speculation that it could well be a matter of affecting the hold of the crimp rather than lubing the bullet down the barrel.

[igolfat8]

Good points. I think I will load up a few magazines with 10 rounds and measure OAL before. Then shoot 5 and measure what is left in magazine to see if any bullets are setting back. I can also pull some that are fed into the chamber to see if the feeding force from the slide is making them longer. That will tell me a lot about the crimp and neck tension.

[OS OK]

I too use the 12:1 mix of lanolin + heet ... I spray it very sparingly over one side of PC'd casts in a tray & then swirl the tray around to get the Lube to spread on the casts. I let it dry and run them in my upside down sizing press. They size easy with my mostly isotope variety of lead (generally 1 to 1.5% Sn added) and they test at 11BHN. HP cast are less than 8.5BHN and is dependent on the actual HP profile & speed I load them for various platforms.
From there they go into their respective storage jars and might be loaded and shot within the day or week or longer. Never put any attention into timing after cast and shooting them in this low pressure pistol arena...rifles are different with the much higher pressures, IMO.
From what I can see, here at my shop...the ES & SD's have been a function of pressure or good, better, best powder burn efficiency.
I crimp my roll crimp loads very well but not excessive in keeping them where I seat them under recoil but also thinking of start pressure too.
I crimp my .45ACP loads to .471" at the case mouth with the same idea as above.

Forgive the lousy groups below, I don't shoot competitive, I shoot for pleasure and big grins but I have always paid attention to ES & SD's thinking that I could learn something from those numbers...
If it was the lube itself, I think I would have seen this many moons ago.
I have a suspicion that it may just be the starting pressure in the case, the case being able to hold that cast until that pressure is reached...the lano-lubed PC cast are really slick and that may have something to do with your numbers.
What I have done, illustrated above is actually different from what you present...my loads were worked up with the lanolin lube on the casts and it may be that their slicker characteristic plays a part in the workup from the start...I think what you have done is to use a load workup that is good with the ES & SD's and added a new variable...I hope I said that right & it makes sense to you. Perhaps you could do a new workup with one of your casts looking for the speed & power factor you want and see what the difference is in the actual powder load and if the numbers will settle right back down?
What you present is rather outrageous, I've not seen this or heard it talked about before...but it is empirical evidence of something going on and it cannot be ignored.
I'll be following this thread very closely...you have my complete attention...thank you for posting this very interesting phenomena.

[William Yanda]

"Anyone have any ideas what is going on?"
You mentioned various powders, tell us more about your brass, please.
Bill

[popper]

Haven't used lanolin but BLL over Smoke's PC in BO & 30/30. As to neck tension, no change and pulling a few is just as tough. I suspect the large ES is due to the lanolin being 'sticky', collecting in the bore and then getting 'cleaned' on some shots. Some have commented that 'heavy' coats of BLL do the same thing. I've been pushing rifle loads pretty hard with 2 coats BLL, those that use 3 coats notice problems.

[igolfat8]

These were loaded with mixed head stamps, all 9mm. Same brass I’ve used for many years, at least until it splits, then discarded. I’m pretty OCD with my reloading techniques and I’ve been reloading for well over 40 years.

My Lead is Lyman #2 equivalent at 14-15 Bnl.

I loaded and shot same boolits coated with and without lanolin. The loads without lanolin resulted in VERY similar Chrono data that I’ve had for years. Only the rounds with lanolin were goofy. I’ll try to get to the range again this week for more testing.

Thanks for all of your questions and suggestions.

[P Flados]

I concur with Traffer that it is all about the reduction in what has been called pull weight or bullet pull.

The "breakaway pressure" required for start of boolit motion is very important in getting consistent full ignition of the powder. You apparently reduced the friction between the boolit and the neck enough such that some percentage of your ammo is not getting full ignition. With mixed 9mm brass, I am confident you have a wide variance in neck tension (one of the variables that affect bullet pull).

As far as your initial goal of reducing residue just forward of the chamber, it sounds to me like you are getting a little hot gas past your boolits, possibly before the boolit has fully left the case.

I fought leading for quite a while with PC coated ammo in a Glock 17. I had similar "residue" results after I fixed the initial gross leading issues. I then continued making changes to get zero residue. The combination that worked for me includes the list below. You may want to look it over to see if there is something you want to try.

• I use a custom deep plug 0.3575" expander
• I use 0.3595" PC coated boolits (Lee 120 TC)
• I use select brass, a mix of Blazer, FC and CCI
• I seat and I do flare removal as separate steps

I can now use any powder I want with loads up to book max with great accuracy and zero leading or film residue.

[tomme boy]

Why does moly coated jacketed require you to up the powder charge to get the same speeds as no moly coated? The moly is slick that is why. Same think as the lanolin.

[igolfat8]

P Flados, My chambers won’t accept anything larger than .357” bullets. My bores slug at .355”.

The smearing I get just into the leade is not lead nor do I have lead deposits in the bore or in my comps.

Tommy Boy, I haven’t seen anyone mention moly coated jacketed bullets unless I overlooked something?

[P Flados]

I understand the issue with plunk test problems with bigger boolits.

Again, mixed brass will have more variance in wall thickness and in the amount of boolit sizing done by the brass.

When I was using mixed 9mm brass, I noted some brands took a lot more effort to size and/or expand than any other handgun brass I load for.

When I was fighting leading, I started using only Blazer, CCI and FC as they seemed to take less effort to size and expand. As such I figured that they would be doing less sizing down of boolits.

What would you loose to do some brass sorting and run a batch or two with headstamps that are consistently "low effort" for sizing / expanding.

[tomme boy]

Tommy Boy, I haven’t seen anyone mention moly coated jacketed bullets unless I overlooked something?

The lanolin is acting as a friction reducer. Same thing is happening with the lanolin. You see reduced speeds and have to up the powder charge to get the speed back. But the lanolin is not a good lube at pressure. That is the reason behind the wide swings in PSI. If you have to use the lanolin to size then soak them in some alcohol to dissolve the lube and wipe them off. If you want to reduce the fouling in the throat run some lapping bullets through it with some very fine lapping compound.

[igolfat8]

I did wash al my boolits with DA to remove the lanolin and towel floss dried. No more lanolin experiments for me.

[Dragonheart]

It could be just the opposite of what you think. PC is a very slick surface, so slick in fact it overcomes normal friction experienced with a copper jacket and in doing so there is an approximate 5% velocity increase that most of us are well aware of. The residue of the lanolin may actually be increasing the friction.