small rifle primers for pistol cases

[ioon44]

I had the chance to buy some CCI 41 small riffle primers really cheap, I did a test to see if I could them for .45 ACP small primer loads. They shot fine with the same load I use with WSPM out of my 1911's but the Walther PPQ .45 ACP did not like them.

[DonMountain]

Another issue that sometimes pops up is a handgun requiring small rifle primers to keep the protrusion of the firing pin from going through the soft, thin primer cups of typical small pistol primers. My two Webley pistols in 38 S&W "need" small rifle primers to stop this from happening.

[Chill Wills]

The 32-20 and the 25-20 are a case in point. They are rifle cartridges but can use small charges of (often) fast handgun powder. Test and see what works - it is load specific.

[richhodg66]

I and lots of people load small pistol primers in the .22 Hornet, works better than small rifle primers.

Many years ago, I grabbed the wrong box and loaded a batch of .38 Special rounds with small rifle primers, don't remember the brand. Anyway, I figured it out when the S&W Model 10 wouldn't reliably set them off, but put them in the Ruger Security Six and they all went off with no problems.

I've also loaded quite a few large pistol primers for reduced loads in rifle cases, no problems there either.

[fecmech]

During the last shortage (about 15 yrs ago) I bought 5K small rifle primers to use. I chrono'd my fast powder loads (BE,RD,Unique) and found little to no difference in velocity. My magnum loads using 296/H110 had improved extream spreads and slightly better accuracy, 2400 didn't matter either way. I don't worry a bit about them in any safe load.

[Dave W.]

Other than the cups being a littler harder, I have never had problem using small rifle primers in place of small pistol primers.

Small rifle magnum primers will make a difference, so be sure to reduce the load some.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Son in law bought the remington small rifle primers 6 1/2 , told him to use them in his 9mm as they are not for the 223 . I load the 32-20 and told him I would trade him if he wanted , other then that I use the size and style as it is marked

[ACC]

From what I understand, small rifle primers just have a beefier cup, but otherwise throw no more flame nor is it hotter than small pistol primers.

I tried a couple empty cases in my 9mm and the hammer strike is sufficient to ignite them so misfires shouldn't be excessive. So is it crazy to use small rifle in lieu of small pistol primers for 9mm and .357 mag?

Back in the day when I had a Contender I would use rifle primers in every cartridge. And I had quite a few barrels. Never had any problems but I worked up using the primers I was always use.

ACC

[GBertolet]

I used small rifle primers for years in the 40 S&W 1911, I used for USPSA competition, as added insurance against primer flow into the firing pin hole. The 38 Super users really needed them, for the same reason, as to make major power factor, their pressures were way above SAAMI specs for that cartridge. The dimensions for small pistol and rifle primers are the same. I imagine that the rifle primers have a little more compound in them also. Probably similar to small pistol magnum strength. The small rifle has a thicker cup, which can withstand higher pressures without flowing back into the firing pin hole. That's the advantage for these applications. The only real disadvantage is, you need a good firing pin hit to set them off. Some of the guns with light firing pin strikes might have issues.

With the current run on loading components, we all may have to make due trying different things.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I used small rifle primers for years in the 40 S&W 1911, I used for USPSA competition, as added insurance against primer flow into the firing pin hole. The 38 Super users really needed them, for the same reason, as to make major power factor, their pressures were way above SAAMI specs for that cartridge. The dimensions for small pistol and rifle primers are the same. I imagine that the rifle primers have a little more compound in them also. Probably similar to small pistol magnum strength. The small rifle has a thicker cup, which can withstand higher pressures without flowing back into the firing pin hole. That's the advantage for these applications. The only real disadvantage is, you need a good firing pin hit to set them off. Some of the guns with light firing pin strikes might have issues.

With the current run on loading components, we all may have to make due trying different things.

You just discribed my secondary reason for wanting to substitute SR primers. With factory loads, my 9mm will show some effects of primer flowing into the pin hole. But with reloads, it can be more severe to the point of clogging the pin hole with metal shavings.

My question is, if using SR primers makes the problem of primer shaving go away, am I just masking the signs of over pressure?

Part of me thinks the primer flow could be due to over pressure because it doesn't do this as bad with factory loads. Part of me thinks it is not over pressure because I observe this with every load I work up and it happens before I reach max. And the chronograph does not indicate any wild velocity gains at the charges which create the primer problems.

So would SR primers just mask the problem?

[megasupermagnum]

You just discribed my secondary reason for wanting to substitute SR primers. With factory loads, my 9mm will show some effects of primer flowing into the pin hole. But with reloads, it can be more severe to the point of clogging the pin hole with metal shavings.

My question is, if using SR primers makes the problem of primer shaving go away, am I just masking the signs of over pressure?

Part of me thinks the primer flow could be due to over pressure because it doesn't do this as bad with factory loads. Part of me thinks it is not over pressure because I observe this with every load I work up and it happens before I reach max. And the chronograph does not indicate any wild velocity gains at the charges which create the primer problems.

So would SR primers just mask the problem?

Don't put all your faith in the chronograph. I find that more often than not magnum SP or SR primers produced LOWER velocities than the identical load with standard SP primers. Does this also mean the pressures are lower? I don't have any proof that it does or does not, but my guess is that the pressure is similar, even with lower velocities. I'm not talking huge differences, 10-20 fps most of the time.

SR primers do show less flattening or cratering than SP primers, but it does depend on the brand. Federal 100's that flatten right out, might show nothing with CCI 500's. And years ago when I contacted CCI, I was told the 550 and 400 (SPM and SR) are the exact same primer. Winchester SR primers tend to flatten out more than say Federal 205's. As I said, small primers are quite variable by brand.

As long as you are staying close to trusted published data, there is nothing to fear. Primers always have been a poor test of pressure. As long as you stay close to published data, chronograph readings are not wild, and you don't see any crazy signs like loose primer pockets, you will be fine.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Don't put all your faith in the chronograph. I find that more often than not magnum SP or SR primers produced LOWER velocities than the identical load with standard SP primers. Does this also mean the pressures are lower? I don't have any proof that it does or does not, but my guess is that the pressure is similar, even with lower velocities. I'm not talking huge differences, 10-20 fps most of the time.

SR primers do show less flattening or cratering than SP primers, but it does depend on the brand. Federal 100's that flatten right out, might show nothing with CCI 500's. And years ago when I contacted CCI, I was told the 550 and 400 (SPM and SR) are the exact same primer. Winchester SR primers tend to flatten out more than say Federal 205's. As I said, small primers are quite variable by brand.

As long as you are staying close to trusted published data, there is nothing to fear. Primers always have been a poor test of pressure. As long as you stay close to published data, chronograph readings are not wild, and you don't see any crazy signs like loose primer pockets, you will be fine.

No I am not putting all my faith in the chronograph. I noted the loads were below max published data, plus I added the bit about velocities. I also could add that although the primers flow into the firing pin hole, they do not appear to flatten around the edges.

[jwhite]

I always load 357's intended for my hand rifle with small rifle primers, mostly because I am trying to working through thousands of Wolf SR primers i got years ago during one of the shortages. They are really hard and lead to misfires in most other rifles but that heavy hammer fall of the handirifle lights em off every time.

[jsizemore]

I used some small pistol magnum primers in my moderate pressure 9mm loads (grabbed the wrong box). There wasn't enough pressure to seal the primer cup to the primer pocket. Plenty enough pressure to fire cut the breech face. Now I got a mess.

I shot plenty of 357 loads with SPMP in my contender back in the day.

[GBertolet]

One thing I failed to mention in my earlier reply, sometimes the firing pin hole in the slide, is much larger than it should be, in relationship to the firing pin diameter. This extra gap increases the possibility and magnitude of primer flowback. Having flowback under these conditions, is not necessiarily an indication of excessive pressure. Small rifle primers are just a workable band-aid for this condition.

jsizemore, I experienced similar issues using WW LP primers in the 45 ACP. The cups are too hard to seal the primer pockets, causing pitting of my breachface. Federal primers, which are softer, never caused this. I have since switched back to Federal primers.

[kevin c]

GBertolet describes a very common and still ongoing practice of using SRP in pistol rounds that need to make major power factor in IPSC and USPA action pistol shooting.

To minimize felt recoil but still make the required velocity for the weight of the bullet, fast burning powders that generate high chamber pressures are commonly used in some divisions. In others, a big charge of a slower powder is used to generate enough gas to make the compensator work efficiently, but in small capacity cases like the 9x19 (which are cheaper). Either way, there can be lots of pressure, so SRP are used to reduce primer smear/flow/piercing.

In my Division, I can use sane loads and standard SPP.