Water dropping BHN increase ?.

[Muddydogs]

So I'm casting some 200 grain .40 cal bullets with wheel weight lead that I came up with a BHN of 10 doing the art pencil test on it. After casting and water quenching the bullets I'm getting a BHN of 20-22 with the pencil test. Does this sound possible? I was kind of surprised by the increase.

[Rcmaveric]

Yes. Give them a few a couple weeks to stabilize though. They may get harder.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Here is a reference to an old post

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...oy-calculators

Personally, I believe that an alloy should not ne heat treated, or quenched as you don't know when you may use said boolits. You are battling "metal memory" that is to say over time, lead alloy will revert back to it's natural state of hardness.

[Muddydogs]

Here is a reference to an old post

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...oy-calculators

Personally, I believe that an alloy should not ne heat treated, or quenched as you don't know when you may use said boolits. You are battling "metal memory" that is to say over time, lead alloy will revert back to it's natural state of hardness.

As I have been researching alloys and quenching the last few day I see mention of quenched alloys getting softer over time with no real amount of time indicated except many many years. I have read posts about guys finding bullets under the bench that were cast 10 to 20 years ago that when tested only dropped a couple BHN.

I have been using the alloy calculator you linked above trying to figure out the most cost effective way to increase the BHN on lead in the 7-8 BHN range. By running the calculator it looks like mixing some 10 BHN lead and a little Super Hard should get most of my lead close to BHN 10. From this point it gets a little expensive trying to increase the BHN on a quantity of lead.

[Froogal]

I drop them in water only because I can handle them much quicker. If the bullets gain any hardness, it will go away after the bullets have sat for a few days. The blend of lead, tin, and antimoney is what determines hardness.

[Muddydogs]

I drop them in water only because I can handle them much quicker. If the bullets gain any hardness, it will go away after the bullets have sat for a few days. The blend of lead, tin, and antimoney is what determines hardness.

I don't think this is true at all. Everything I read on water quenching if done right the increase of BHN will be maintained for years with only a small BHN drop after many years.

Sure you can handle a water dropped bullet right away but it hardly seems worth the hassle of dealing with the water when an air cooled bullet can be handled in 15 to 30 minutes and is mostly cooled in an hour depending on its size.

[Froogal]

I don't think this is true at all. Everything I read on water quenching if done right the increase of BHN will be maintained for years with only a small BHN drop after many years.

Sure you can handle a water dropped bullet right away but it hardly seems worth the hassle of dealing with the water when an air cooled bullet can be handled in 15 to 30 minutes and is mostly cooled in an hour depending on its size.

I have tested cast bullets that were allowed to air cool, compared to bullets from the same batch that were water quenched, and yes, the water quenched bullets did have a higher BHN, but after about one week, all those bullets tested about the same.

[MUSTANG]

I have tested cast bullets that were allowed to air cool, compared to bullets from the same batch that were water quenched, and yes, the water quenched bullets did have a higher BHN, but after about one week, all those bullets tested about the same.

We are speaking to a physical grain structure change that occurs with Water Quenching (or heat treating after casting & water quenching a cast boolit) . The alloy will have significant impact on the hardness change for water quenching. Some good reference data here: http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

My experience in hardening boolits (rifle & pistol) has been using wheel weights (from 10 years and back surges with higher antimony levels) and the use of Radiological Source pigs comprised of 96% lead, 3% antimony, and 1% tin. These alloy sources have proven to change BHN to the 20-28 BHN range; with no appreciable reduction in hardening after 3 to 5 years for stored boolits.

Perhaps Froogal was using an alloy that was not optimized for hardening by water quenching - and the hardness (Grain structure change) was different than what many of us experience.

[Muddydogs]

I have tested cast bullets that were allowed to air cool, compared to bullets from the same batch that were water quenched, and yes, the water quenched bullets did have a higher BHN, but after about one week, all those bullets tested about the same.

The bullets I asked about in the OP are 2 weeks old with a BHN of 20-22.

[Cast_outlaw]

Sounds right I dropped some lee 429-240-2R in ice water the came out a 30 on lay lee hardness tester

[Aunegl]

I water drop and do my sizing within 24 hours. With my setup, it gets a little tough to size after that.

[Froogal]

We are speaking to a physical grain structure change that occurs with Water Quenching (or heat treating after casting & water quenching a cast boolit) . The alloy will have significant impact on the hardness change for water quenching. Some good reference data here: http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

My experience in hardening boolits (rifle & pistol) has been using wheel weights (from 10 years and back surges with higher antimony levels) and the use of Radiological Source pigs comprised of 96% lead, 3% antimony, and 1% tin. These alloy sources have proven to change BHN to the 20-28 BHN range; with no appreciable reduction in hardening after 3 to 5 years for stored boolits.

Perhaps Froogal was using an alloy that was not optimized for hardening by water quenching - and the hardness (Grain structure change) was different than what many of us experience.

1-16 lead from Roto-metals.

[RickinTN]

A binary alloy, without antimony, will not gain any hardness when water dropped, at least not long term. It takes a tertiary alloy with tin and antimony, and a little arsenic doesn't hurt. Wheel weights do have antimony and maybe arsenic.
Rick

[Muddydogs]

1-16 lead from Roto-metals.

Ya 1-16 lead from Rotometals is tin and lead so its missing antimony which is what you need for quenching or heat treating.

[MUSTANG]

A binary alloy, without antimony, will not gain any hardness when water dropped, at least not long term. It takes a tertiary alloy with tin and antimony, and a little arsenic doesn't hurt. Wheel weights do have antimony and maybe arsenic.
Rick

This may explain why Froogal is not having success "Water Hardening" his boolits. Water Quenching boolits requires the alloy have antimony in the mix. Roto-Metals web site states that 1 to 16 alloy is 94% lead and 6 % tin. No Antimony. So he does not have the requisite Antimony present to achieve hardness; and if he measures any hardness is disappears next day. Where as - those of with an alloy containing Antimony get long term 20 - 28 BHN years later.

[44magLeo]

Even with antimony water quenching is erratic.
The time difference between pouring and quenching varies. If your molds drop perfectly then the variations diminish.
Anything that happens to allow one bullet to cool off more than another causes variations in hardness.
Using an oven to heat large quantities of boolits and quenching all at once keeps the heat treating consistent.
Leo

[joe leadslinger]

I PC then dump them in a pail of water. So all the bullets are the same temperature when quenched. You don't get much benefit from quenching as you cast if you also quench after PCing. I don't use lube, but if I did I would cast and then put them all the oven bring them up to temp then quench. IMO

[MUSTANG]

Even with antimony water quenching is erratic.
The time difference between pouring and quenching varies. If your molds drop perfectly then the variations diminish.
Anything that happens to allow one bullet to cool off more than another causes variations in hardness.
Using an oven to heat large quantities of boolits and quenching all at once keeps the heat treating consistent.
Leo

In my case, the slight difference I see in measuring BHN (Lee BHN Tester) from cast boolits of the same lot are never more than 2-3BHN are attributable to "Non_Calibrated Eyeball". Even with my plastic soda pop bottle holder for the magnifying apparatus - I see view shaking and "INTERPRETABILITY" of where that little line is at on the depression in the boolit.

As a general statement - I am blessed in that my BHN readings are in a close tolerance (1-3 BHN, no big deal in the 20-30 BHN range); and they seem to be the same reading after 3-5 years when I take cast and heat Treated Boolits down from a shelf to use.

[Froogal]

This may explain why Froogal is not having success "Water Hardening" his boolits. Water Quenching boolits requires the alloy have antimony in the mix. Roto-Metals web site states that 1 to 16 alloy is 94% lead and 6 % tin. No Antimony. So he does not have the requisite Antimony present to achieve hardness; and if he measures any hardness is disappears next day. Where as - those of with an alloy containing Antimony get long term 20 - 28 BHN years later.

No. Not having difficulty. I do not need, or want the bullets to be any harder. I mostly shoot steel targets, and I WANT the bullets to just kind of flatten out and drop to the ground. I DO NOT want any ricochets. So long as I do not get any leading of the bore, I am happy.

[fredj338]

No. Not having difficulty. I do not need, or want the bullets to be any harder. I mostly shoot steel targets, and I WANT the bullets to just kind of flatten out and drop to the ground. I DO NOT want any ricochets. So long as I do not get any leading of the bore, I am happy.

What he meant was your experience is unique to the alloy, not the process. Yes water quenching the proper alloy bullet yields a permanent hardness increase. it must have antimony & arsenic is helpful.