Lee PrecisionWidenersReloading EverythingTitan Reloading
MidSouth Shooters SupplyInline FabricationRotoMetals2Load Data
Repackbox
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 54

Thread: *H870 Duplex Loads in the 4570*

  1. #21
    Banned



    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    7,068
    Quote Originally Posted by FLHTC View Post
    All you guys have bigger stones than I do. I met an older gentleman one time about 10 years ago who was selling off all of his reloading equipment and ammunition. He had about 500 rounds of 4570 loaded up with duplex loads. I can’t recall the grain weight but he was using 4350 and black powder. All I could picture was looking down at my hands and seeing nothing but a pinky left. I’m not trying to be a powder Nazi or any of that. I guess when it comes to this, I could not run with the big dogs I’ll be the first to admit it.
    The H-870, or the powder I have AA 8700 (which I'm convinced is the exact same stuff), is so slow burning that I really do not think it's possible to overload it, especially not in a big straight walled case. I started using it with heavy jacketed bullets in 7mm mag and even as big as that case is and as over bore as it is, a compressed load showed no pressure signs at all, primers looked very nice and extraction smooth as glass.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master Dapaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Minne-Snow-Ta!
    Posts
    600
    I am planning on trying 3 grains of Red Dot to start, the remaining powders I have are all ball powders and I fear migration. I got a nudge from a friend to use slow rifle powder for the kicker, he says it provides a better burn but I dont know. Testing will flesh it all out.

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy Ajohns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Roseau, Mn
    Posts
    323
    I kinda hate to even ask, but do you guys think doing these duplex loads would be ok in a 43 Dutch Beaumont? They're around the same capacity, just the Beaumont has a bottle neck. In a original dutch bolt action in good shape. Just throwing it out there as I would have no idea, never messed with duplex. But have a lot of H870

    Thanks

  4. #24
    Boolit Master Dapaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Minne-Snow-Ta!
    Posts
    600
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajohns View Post
    I kinda hate to even ask, but do you guys think doing these duplex loads would be ok in a 43 Dutch Beaumont? They're around the same capacity, just the Beaumont has a bottle neck. In a original dutch bolt action in good shape. Just throwing it out there as I would have no idea, never messed with duplex. But have a lot of H870

    Thanks
    I hope you have the same weather we have on Mille Lacs today!

    I am planning on trying a duplex on all my rifle carts next week, the first is the 4570 then the .223 (I know, WHY!?!) and 7mm-08. Cant hurt and will fill some time.

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy Ajohns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Roseau, Mn
    Posts
    323
    Not really. Cool and damp here. I like what I read about doing this with these slow powders. I never see the others mentioned for sale, but have some 870. IMR 4198 in itself doesn't fill much of that case and I'd like to try something else. Thanks again!

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia
    Posts
    13,617
    I routinely use it in the 8x56R Steyr - and get 2100fps out of it. That is a necked cartridge, in a way. A very gradual shoulder though, and a pretty strong action. I don't know about the Beaumont, is it strong enough for smokeless?
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy Ajohns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Roseau, Mn
    Posts
    323
    I have the 8x56r also. Yes they're strong, the Beaumont? Well they do have loads (350ish gr weight boolit) been used through the years with 32-35 grains of IMR 4198 and others like that. 5744 is another one used. But that case with 35 grs of 4198 doesn't fill much. I need to shoot mine more and see what the best I can get from it, but the strength I would assume (being in good mechanical condition) would be along the lines of trapdoor Springfield. At least that's all I would ever push it.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master

    Hamish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Edge of The Crab Orchard National Wildlife Refuge
    Posts
    3,569
    There is a reason the plank owners of this site coined the term "flaming dirt".

    There are MANY old threads on WC860, 870, 872 on this site. Castpics has data. This powder and duplexing it is not any more dangerous than any other reloading technique.

    Generally speaking, thirty caliber or bigger, 30 WCF or bigger, and any straight wall. Smaller caliber cartridges are a total fail with cast, but can perform very well with jacketed on the heavier weight projectiles. .243 is a perfect example.

    Adding a kicker allows use in so many more ways.

    Hit the search bar and have some coffee,,,,,
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"

    Last of the original Group Buy Honcho's.

    "Dueling should have never been made illegal in this country. It settled lots of issues between folks."- Char-Gar

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    9,078
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    I've seen pressure issues using red dot as a kicker. I much prefer something like 4227 or RE7. But if you must, I'd start at maybe 4 grains and work up until you get a clean burn.
    Any thoughts on why the red dot would cause pressure issues? Apart from curiosity, this might translate into something I should be mindful of if and when I get to play with the Brit. You may remember I once used 4227 as a kicker under some Winchester Supreme. You thought that wasn't a good idea but the result wasn't alarming. I did take heed though.

    I'm also wondering whether the reactive filler principle could be applied in Dapaki's case? Won't use as much of his 870 so may be moot anyway. But how far can one take the reactive filler principle?

    Some years ago I played around with mixing powders in my hornet. Now this is taboo, to be sure but I did it anyway. It started out as duplexing but powder mixing was kinda hard to prevent so I thought ..... Anyway, it worked and it worked well. I was mixing 4227 and Varget.

    Dapaki has expressed concern about 4227 migrating into the 870 - I would say that if the 870 is compressed then it wont.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    SE WV
    Posts
    6,217
    My guess on the red dot or anything like it is because it is so energetic it doesn't take much to generate a whole lot of power, but not get the main charge to light off smoothly. I would strongly suspect if you set up pressure measuring equipment you'd see two strong spikes. Not an ideal situation since the effective case volume would be so big at that point.
    As for reactive filler, I've gone as much as 50-50 with it, with no problem. Also not much advantage other than more recoil and a little more velocity. It does work though, especially to get a paper patched bullet through the throat and into the bore without damage.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master Dapaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Minne-Snow-Ta!
    Posts
    600
    Great responses! Thank you all.

    Question: What is reactive filler? The W867?

    Yes, I know it's taboo to speak about mixing powders too, I have mixed different lots to "tune" in broken cases of powders and so forth and am not afraid to do so with the W867 as well but if someone has already done the work with W876, I would be happy to start with a -15% load and work up if need be. If not, I'll continue to focus on duplex loads and your experiences are worth a LOT to all of us in working loads. Especially if only pull/bulk/surplus powders are all that are left.

    I will be using my SSP91 breech for load development, its a cannon style rotary breech, it will show me pressure signs earlier than anything else I own. I

  12. #32
    Moderator Emeritus


    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    SW Montana
    Posts
    12,452
    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    Any thoughts on why the red dot would cause pressure issues?
    It may start the bullet moving before the 870 ignites. A faster rifle powder should be closer in ignition to the slow rifle powder. We are probably talking fractions of milliseconds here but you want the bullet to have a smooth passage into the rifling.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  13. #33
    Boolit Master Dapaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Minne-Snow-Ta!
    Posts
    600
    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    It may start the bullet moving before the 870 ignites. A faster rifle powder should be closer in ignition to the slow rifle powder. We are probably talking fractions of milliseconds here but you want the bullet to have a smooth passage into the rifling.
    Fascinating! Please flesh this out a little more for me. Slower powders do a better job of igniting the bulk of the fill?

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master


    GregLaROCHE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Southern France by way of Interior Bush Alaska
    Posts
    5,286
    Quote Originally Posted by FLHTC View Post
    All you guys have bigger stones than I do. I met an older gentleman one time about 10 years ago who was selling off all of his reloading equipment and ammunition. He had about 500 rounds of 4570 loaded up with duplex loads. I can’t recall the grain weight but he was using 4350 and black powder. All I could picture was looking down at my hands and seeing nothing but a pinky left. I’m not trying to be a powder Nazi or any of that. I guess when it comes to this, I could not run with the big dogs I’ll be the first to admit it.
    Beware of using someone else’s reloads in your gun, unless you know them very well and trust them.

  15. #35
    Moderator Emeritus


    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    SW Montana
    Posts
    12,452
    Quote Originally Posted by Dapaki View Post
    Fascinating! Please flesh this out a little more for me. Slower powders do a better job of igniting the bulk of the fill?
    The initial start of the pistol priming powders may cause a quick enough ignition to start the bullet but not necessarily move it fully past the lands. While SEE, not what I wanted to bring up here has rarely been duplicated one of the possible explanations was the bullet started in the lands, slowed and then the full pressure wave hit a bullet finding it with a swelled base to large to smoothly enter the bore and expanding it rather than impelling it forward.
    This was IIRC, done in a lab rather than dealing with lead bullets in the field but remember we are dealing with an extremely slow powder we have difficulty igniting so we use a 3-5 gr "primer". It probably applies less to straight wall cartridges but all my work with it has been with bottleneck cartridges. It works well for what it does.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  16. #36
    Boolit Master Dapaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Minne-Snow-Ta!
    Posts
    600
    Great points, certainly do not want a SEE.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master

    Hamish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Edge of The Crab Orchard National Wildlife Refuge
    Posts
    3,569
    Quote Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE View Post
    Beware of using someone else’s reloads in your gun, unless you know them very well and trust them.
    I absolutely WILL NOT touch anyone else's reloads unless I am intimately acquainted with them and their loading practices.

    Powders and their use in reloading are merely a matter of logic and common sense, unknown reloads, on the other hand, are a matter of life and death,,,,,,,
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"

    Last of the original Group Buy Honcho's.

    "Dueling should have never been made illegal in this country. It settled lots of issues between folks."- Char-Gar

  18. #38
    Boolit Master Dapaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Minne-Snow-Ta!
    Posts
    600
    I second that *BUT* lets keep on topic please.

    Duplex loads.................GO!

  19. #39
    Boolit Master Dapaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Minne-Snow-Ta!
    Posts
    600
    Well, I started my duplex loads today but was very curious about using WC867 in a .223 so that is where I started, please look for a new thread called, "WC867 Duplex Workups In .223".

    I will be getting back to the 4570 soon.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Visalia, Ca
    Posts
    657
    Paul A Matthews in his book, 40 Years with the 45-70, used 5 gr Unique behind H 4831 with good results

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check