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Thread: M1 Garand Clip: Loading Basics and Troubleshooting Tips

  1. #61
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    the enblock for the m1 garand is 1 pc

    the m14 Mag is made up of

    2 sides
    spring
    follower
    bottom plate = 5 pcs .....and Has to be assembled and welded ... and yes holds more rounds

  2. #62
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    Just bought some more en blocs and cardboards to go in bandoleers , a few years ago you could still buy drums of new en blocs if you wanted to , do not see a lot of stripper clips for some rifle / caliber combinations .

    I do have strippers for enfields , mausers , springfields , and sks and I have single round loaded them , and have shot garands same way with or without a en bloc .

    Also have 2 boxes of 20 round ar 15 magazines , got them from the used and abused in service , some marked bad do not use , a little cleaning and guess what as good as new .

    Bought my first 1917 a remington in 1979 , just as issued and a 1918 barrel , just a few years ago I had a winchester with a johnson automatics barrel as rebuilt never issued during WW2 , had a friend had a johnson automatic , interesting it was , have a hakim to and several 1903 and 1903a3 , and a M-14 , so I have used them all and they all have drawbacks and or positive things about each .

    Back to the clip loading original post thank you for posting , have a good day.

  3. #63
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    The 14 Mag is body is one piece not two. It is spot welded on the seam in the front.

    The claim that it a M1 Garand detachable magazine used too much material or the assembly took too much time doesn't hold water.

    The M1 Garand went into service in 1936 with a total of 5,468,772 built. It was designed and adopted in a non war time situation. No time or material constraints during the design or adoption phase. They had been building BAR mags since 1918 so not a technology issue.

    The M1 Carbine went into service in 1942 with a total of 6,121,309 built. It was designed and adopted in a war time situation. We had not entered the war in 1940, however, the US entering the war was almost a certainty. The material or assembly for a detachable magazine in the carbine was not an issue.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-28-2020 at 10:01 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
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  4. #64
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    M-Tecs,

    I see you were the OP for this thread. If you read post #9 you will see my original thesis in which I PROPERLY spoke of "Magazine" and opined it was too bad the Garand did not have one.

    Opinions vary, but the clip issue was raised many times by various indigenous groups in the past. I like the Garand, own too many, and know it would have been a better arm with a MAGAZINE!

    The clip is the Archilles Heel of a fine rifle. The G43, Tokarev 40 and the Ljungman M42 had magazines. Why not a CLIP? Let us agree to disagree. Be Well.
    Adam

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    M-Tecs,

    I see you were the OP for this thread. If you read post #9 you will see my original thesis in which I PROPERLY spoke of "Magazine" and opined it was too bad the Garand did not have one.

    Opinions vary, but the clip issue was raised many times by various indigenous groups in the past. I like the Garand, own too many, and know it would have been a better arm with a MAGAZINE!

    The clip is the Archilles Heel of a fine rifle. The G43, Tokarev 40 and the Ljungman M42 had magazines. Why not a CLIP? Let us agree to disagree. Be Well.
    Adam

    The actual description of the M1 Garand Rifle is "internal magazine that accepts an 8-round en-bloc clip".

    https://www.thoughtco.com/world-war-...garand-2361245

    Magazine & Action
    While Garand was designing the M1, Army Ordnance demanded that the new rifle possess a fixed, non-protruding magazine. It was their fear that a detachable magazine would be quickly lost by US soldiers in the field and would make the weapon more susceptible to jamming due to dirt and debris. With this requirement in mind, John Pedersen created an "en bloc" clip system that permitted the ammunition to be loaded into the rifle's fixed magazine. Originally the magazine was meant to hold ten .276 rounds, however, when the change was made to .30-06, the capacity was reduced to eight.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-29-2020 at 03:05 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  6. #66
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    M-Tecs,

    Thanks for the government verbiage. A clip is still a clip even if it is in government nomenclature "an internal magazine that accepts an 8-round en-bloc clip." What does the clip look like for the G-43, Tokarev 40 or Swedish M42?? WITHOUT the Garand clip, what is the rate of fire? ALA Rorke's Drift comes to mind....

    Numerous people we dropped Garands to in their quest for freedom in the past were angry the Garand was so dependent on that clip. What were the guerillas to do? Police up the scene of their ambush so they could reload clips to set up another ambush? Not all ammo we dropped was in clips. Much was in MG belts that could only be used in Garands WITH the clips! IF the Garand had had a MAGAZINE like the G43, all they had to do was load and lock. I laughed about the Ordnance concern magazines "would be quickly lost." Did the Brits "quickly lose" their SMLE Magazines in WWI or WWII?

    I am tired of beating a dead horse to death trying to convince folks who listened to too much veteran BS. The stories get better as time passes. I worked with indigenous people and heard their concerns about Garand clips. Take it or leave it.

    Adam
    Last edited by Adam Helmer; 04-29-2020 at 03:58 PM.

  7. #67
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  8. #68
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    I heard veterans talk and it did not get better with time , indigenous people , thats nice look up the joke that goes with thats nice .

    Veterans b.s. I can only say that sounds like the B.S. it is, I am not sure what veteran b.s. is and none I was around were full of any of that and I never heard veterans bemoan the fact it used a 8 round en bloc , may not have had what you want , but it worked for them .

    Had a uncle I detested on my mothers side that blathered on about indigenous people , he was with a alphabet agency , really did not care as he was only about doing whatever the state department in charge at the time wanted done , treated his own dad like he treated other people as he stirred up hate and discontent around the globe .

    Back to the subject at hand , it may have been a outdated system but it was a handy system and it worked , I remember when m-14 mags were really high priced , and I bet a en bloc was cheap to make .

    Convert it to a bm-59 , but I will keep mine the way it is , but I like the 20 round mags in my ar15 , do not stick down to far and 20 will work till I reload , have 30 round mags , still prefer the 20.

  9. #69
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    FLINTNFIRE,

    PEACE! I do not need to "look up a joke" about indigenous people, so you can keep that for yourself. I had 7 uncles in WWII; two were Marines and they all had opinions about the Garand.

    I find it interesting you mentioned the Italian BM-59. Since the Italians used the Mannlicher CLIP System with the adoption of their Model 1891, 6.5MM, DID you notice after WWII, when we offered them the Garand, they did not stay with the CLIP, but went to a BOX MAGAZINE?

    I rest my case. Let us agree to disagree. Be Well.

    Adam

  10. #70
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    Got bit once and not from misoperation but from the requirements for single loading. Bolt was back but not securly latched. It slammed shut with the lightest effort at inserting a single round. Had that souvenir thumb for about 6 months...

  11. #71
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    Adam Helmer Peace to , the joke was not about people it is the phrase , I to had uncles in WW2 , 2 of them and a grandfather .

    My father and a 2 uncles served in Korea some were Marines some were Army , the Italians did there update and the U.S. made the m-14 and then moved right on to the AR15 , they all work , I rest my defense also , agreed to disagree .

  12. #72
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    The M1 Garand's place in history.

    It was designed in the mid 30's, it was clearly the superior rifle in general use in WWII and by the mid 50 it's was obsolete as a main battle rifle for a major military. Just like the Colt 1873 it would not be my first choice heading into combat but that doesn't mean they are not still highly effective.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-30-2020 at 05:14 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  13. #73
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    Hey I like my 1873 revolvers and lever action , but true about wanting something more up to date for some things , still they and the M1 are good for some things .

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLINTNFIRE View Post
    Hey I like my 1873 revolvers and lever action , but true about wanting something more up to date for some things , still they and the M1 are good for some things .
    FLINTNFIRE,

    I agree with you! MY SA revolvers in .45 Colt, 44M, and 41M will seal the deal, in case of need. I do not plan to MISS with the First shot! One more thing: In a gun fight, a SECOND handgun IS the Quickest Reload. SO, have TWO M1873s and done deal...

    Adam

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    FLINTNFIRE,

    I agree with you! MY SA revolvers in .45 Colt, 44M, and 41M will seal the deal, in case of need. I do not plan to MISS with the First shot! One more thing: In a gun fight, a SECOND handgun IS the Quickest Reload. SO, have TWO M1873s and done deal...

    Adam
    Hey , I agree , bought 3 45 Colt and a 357 and a 32-20 , love them , all copies of colts . Had 2 blackhawks in 45 Colt but the oldest son did not want a 1873 , he had to have the blackhawk .

    Funny though he does not like the ruger only loads , and he shoots the loads for the 1873 revolvers , have a good day .

  16. #76
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    Love all 13 of my Garands . Love that shortening the gas system and adding the box mag saved us from using the gawdawful ugly brass eating FN/FAL type rifle ! Until we went to evil black rifles....

  17. #77
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    First, I would much rather have a detachable box magazine (DBM). Just more convenient to me.

    Saying a Garand is worthless without the clips and then saying an M14 is great cause it has a DBM is a poor argument. If you don't have a DBM then the M14 is just as 'worthless' as a Garand.

    Note: One of the arguments made for the clip in the Garand is because a GI would 'lose' or not pick up the DBM's during battle, leaving him with a single shot rifle. This has been proven wrong over the years but was a consideration back in the procurement.

    So, was the Garand design perfect? Not by a long shot. But, it was leaps and bounds better than anything else in the world for most of WWII.

    Would I take an M14 over a Garand? Yes. If it had not been used by my father-in-law, I'd even trade my Garand for an M14/M1A.

  18. #78
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    I'm going to say, Thank You, Charlie b for refreshing this thread. It's 4 months old, and somehow I missed it when it was then current. I've spent about 45 minutes closely reading it from start to finish, and enjoyed it all.

    I love M1 Garands and M14s. After reading all (currently) 4 pages of posts I'll just make a few observations and no arguments.

    To start, I was surprised that it went all the way to Post #60 to mention the Italian BM-59 family of rifles. If you think about the en-bloc M1 and the magazine M14, the BM-59 was a logical step in evolution, and the only real advantage that the M14 has over the BM-59 is a better, more compact gas system.

    There's been lots of discussion about the en-bloc clips and having to load them, how to load them, and what if you ran out. I carried an M1 for many a mile in the Infantry, and they did become very heavy, as did the ammo load. At some point after their development and issue, the en-block clips had to be loaded a certain way. If I recall correctly it was with the top round to the left to prevent a 5th round stoppage, but this problem was solved fairly early on and thereafter they could be loaded with the top round on either side and function reliably.
    We never ran out of them, and never had to hand load the clips.

    Something that no one has mentioned is that the M1 has a clip release on the left side. If you've partially expended the clip and there's a lull and you want to fully charge the rifle you can place your right hand over the action, push back on the operating handle with the knife edge of your little finger, and reach over the top with your thumb and push the release. The clip with it's partial contents will eject upward but be prevented from flying all over by the presence of your hand. Reload with a fresh clip. If your hand isn't big enough you can use your left thumb to push the release.

    I've got one M1 that has a bent clip ejection spring. This is a neat thing at the range, because after the last round is fired the clip pops up and just sits there waiting to be plucked out with the fingers and placed in the pocket, instead of disappearing into the tall grass or annoying a shooter a couple of benches away. I've purchased a couple of springs in anticipation of possible future need, but have never replaced this one.

    When the M14 went to Viet Nam (I did not) I was surprised at its short life span. I think replacing it in U.S. Military service was a big mistake, and after that conflict I think it should have again become standard. I'm sure that it would have been replaced by now just in the course of things, but the M16 might not have been the route that was followed and we might have something quite different today. It was a real travesty that (slap me down if I'm wrong but I think it was Bill Clinton) the government cut them up instead of selling them to the public. After all, we paid for them, and someone had come up with a method of permanently converting them to semi-auto only. I've also read (again, slap if merited) that one of the deciding factors in issuing a 5.56mm weapon was that the massive drafts of the Viet Nam war brought many into the military that had never fired a weapon in their life, and that it was easier for them to master a .22 cal. than a .30 cal. weapon. Today, and for years now, the military continues to search for an advanced replacement weapon, and the proposed replacements are never .22, always something larger.

    Myself, now age 78, find the wonderful rifles of my youth, the M1 and M14 to have grown no lighter to carry. I'm looking elsewhere, at a stainless Mini-30, but the operating system of the rifle remains much the same.

    Also, I haven't read an exact description of how I was trained to load the rifle to avoid "M1 Thumb", which was to push the operating rod handle rearward until it locked back. Then insert the clip with right hand, and using the knife edge of the little finger of the right hand (lefties had another technique) to control the release of the op rod while pushing the clip home with the thumb. Depending on the amount of wear to the lock mechanism the bolt may or may not release while you are performing this operation, but can't slam shut on your thumb if you maintain pressure on the op rod handle. If it does release you can feel the forward pressure and you just quickly remove your hand and let the bolt slam forward chambering the first round. But a rifle with little wear will usually remain locked back for the entire operation and it will be necessary to pull it back a bit to release the bolt after the clip is loaded. I fired thousands of rounds through M1s, not just qualification and live fire exercises, but also two summers shooting on the battalion rifle team, and never got bit--and only heard of one or two guys who did. The guys who get M1 thumb are often those who just got their first M1 from CMP or wherever and have had no training on how to load.

    I think the "ping" being a giveaway to an empty rifle and an advantage to an enemy is just an old wives tale. If you are proficient with an M1 you can reload it very quickly. This is not to say you are invulnerable, as maybe there is a Chinese human wave attack, and more Chinese than rounds.

    When we transitioned to the M14 the battle load was 5 - 20 round magazines. One in the rifle, four on the belt in two pouches which each contained two magazines. Extra bandoleers were available. This used to make us ponder what the philosophy of Ordnance Generals might be, as improved weapons and ammo always involved carrying the same or a little more weight.

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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    First, I would much rather have a detachable box magazine (DBM). Just more convenient to me.

    Saying a Garand is worthless without the clips and then saying an M14 is great cause it has a DBM is a poor argument. If you don't have a DBM then the M14 is just as 'worthless' as a Garand.

    Note: One of the arguments made for the clip in the Garand is because a GI would 'lose' or not pick up the DBM's during battle, leaving him with a single shot rifle. This has been proven wrong over the years but was a consideration back in the procurement.

    So, was the Garand design perfect? Not by a long shot. But, it was leaps and bounds better than anything else in the world for most of WWII.

    Would I take an M14 over a Garand? Yes. If it had not been used by my father-in-law, I'd even trade my Garand for an M14/M1A.
    charlie b,

    The Brits used a detachable box magazine (DBM) in WW1 and WW2 with their SMLEs, so why was it a concern regarding a DBM for the Garand in the 1930s? The Brits let the DBM in place and loaded with chargers.

    As for the "M1 Thumb", let me say that even the dullest recruit FINALLY got it right!

    Adam
    Last edited by Adam Helmer; 08-26-2020 at 04:02 PM.

  20. #80
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    I don't know why it was brought up back then, but, it was in a couple documents I read years ago.

    FWIW, what use is a DBM if you charge it while in the rifle? The advantage of a DBM is large capacity and ease of swapping magazines when reloading. If you use stripper clips you may as well have a fixed magazine.

    There is a lot about the M1 that was driven more by Army leadership than by engineering design. The more famous is the caliber decision but there were others. So, any inference that the Garand was an optimum design is just plain wrong. The advantage of the Garand was rate of aimed fire, nothing more. It helped that it was almost as reliable as the bolt rifles back then (and some folks in Korea would debate that).

    Like I said before, I'd take a DBM any day. If anything, the over all length, weight and recoil are the bigger drawbacks for me.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check