Then there was the SVT 38 and 40
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Then there was the SVT 38 and 40
Paper targets aren't your friends. They won't lie for you and they don't care if your feelings get hurt.
That Eye-talian Carcano, and the old Austrian Mannlichers, which, btw, were still in use in WW2 by Hungary, whatever their faults as bolt action battle rifles, loaded in an instant with Mannlicher clips. In fact, the Carcano clip, like the later Garand clip, could be loaded without worrying about which side of the clip was up or down. The real problem with the original Mannlicher clips was the need for them to eject out of the bottom of projecting single stack magazines, exposing the action to lots of dirt, and of course they were single-stack. The M1 avoided those problems by being double stacked, therefore more compact, and ejecting out de top of de gun. Not obsolete. A brilliant solution. Just superseded after WW2.Originally Posted by Adam Helmer
And how many trillions of M1 clips were "needlessly produced" in WW2? As opposed to 5 round stripper clips that everyone else used? I think, just enough--we did win, right?
Last edited by fgd135; 04-27-2020 at 02:26 PM.
It's not like 03 and M14 ammo came on stripper clips.... Oh wait, they did!
I can run a M14 a lot quicker using just the rifles stripper clip guide than I can emptying the magazine, taking the magazine out, putting a feeder clip on the magazinr, putting a stripper clip into the feeder clip(4X), then reinstating the magazine....
fgd135,
You logic has "a fly in the ointment" regarding the Garand clip. You presuppose the soldier HAS a clip to "feed" his M1! No Clip = No semi-auto fire. The Soldier THEN has a Single Shot Rifle, aka Rork's Drift! LOL.
The REQUIRED Garand clip in NO way compares to any NEED FOR M14 or M1903 chargers. No chargers merely requires a soldier to hand load his ammo into a box magazine and the M14 is fully capable of sustained semi-auto fire. Where is the Garand guy with NO enbloc clip?
I rest my case. The Garand "Coulda, Shoulda" had a box magazine. The times were changing, but John Garand persisted with a complicated ammo feed system for an otherwise brilliant Rifle, I own many. No Garand Clip=a one-shooter! Meanwhile a M1903 rifleman could take ammo out of an M1919/M1917 MG belt to load his rifle and Had NO NEED of an enbloc Clip. WHEN did a Garand rifleman have NO need of that enbloc to use MG ammo for his rifle?
I had 3 Match M14s in the 1980s and shot on my state high power rifle team twice at Camp Perry. NEVER did I ever have or NEED or USE a 5-round stripper clip to keep my M14s "running". Could any Garand shooter say the same about the need for a clip? I guess we disagree about the "brilliant" enbloc clip. Maybe we differ on our understanding of what is brilliant. Be Well.
Adam
Last edited by Adam Helmer; 04-28-2020 at 12:13 PM.
The same is true for your comparison , no magazine a single shot rifle , a stripper clip is no good then either .
It is a good system , is true magazines were already prevalent , but the design works and it worked good .
All this is nitpicking and second guessing , All this is a far cry from the original post and its intent , I myself always buy extras of all magazines /clips as I want lots of spares .
FLINTFIRE,
You make a strawman and then slay him regarding "no magazine" to bolster your weak argument. How does "no magazine" apply to a M1903 or M1917?
I prefer a magazine fed M1903, M1917 or M14 to an enbloc-dependent M1.
As for wandering from the "original post", I did not open this bidding, I am merely responding based on my experience to what others posted. Comprende?
Adam
Last edited by Adam Helmer; 04-28-2020 at 12:33 PM.
Do you comprehend , your argument and your referring back to a bolt action is way away from anything to do with a en bloc or magazine rifle , why do you not go back to a winchester tube feed or better yet a trapdoor , strawman be dead .
How far off the ground would you have to lift a M14 off the ground to eject and load a new mag ... or you can rotate rifle
in fact the m1 Garand is better because the rifle... in a trench could be fired with the muzzle/ rifle closer to the ground
How far off the ground would you have to lift a M1 garand off the ground to eject ?
How about you thing of a enblock clip as a top load rifle mag that does not matter what end you put in first ?
If a M1 garand rifleman did not pick up empty enblocks .. it would be the same as a M14 rifleman not picking up empty magazines
I keep some clips around in case an M1 Garand shows up! Still waiting.....
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Having shot NRA High Power in prone the with both for years the top load verse both load is a non issue.
For it's day the Garand was a great battle rifle but it was obsolete by the mid 50's due to the en bloc.
The bottom line is how many en bloc are currently used by any of the worlds military? If the en bloc was truly a superior system why isn't it still in use?
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
FLINTFIRE,
I "referred back to a bolt action" BECAUSE the M1 Garand was adopted in 1936. Our Military inventory up until then included M1903, and M1917 bolt action rifles and M1918 BARs. All those Arms In Inventory USED Box Magazines. So, John Garand "Had a Clue" what worked feeding .30-06 ammunition for our Military arms. Why was there a "need" for a clumsy enbloc clip?
A box magazine rifle has NO need of ANY clip, stripper or enbloc. COMPRENDE???
Adam
Ford,
Are you a veteran or high power rifle shooter? An M14 rifleman NEVER had a need to pick up an empty magazine any more than a SMLE British soldier NEEDED to pick up a SMLE magazine. Strippers, or single loaded rounds, would load BOTH and the rifleman kept shooting. How would that WORK for the man with a Garand and NO enbloc clip???
Another "BRILLIANT" Enbloc clip observation debunked!
Adam
It helps if everyone is using the same terms.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...box%20magazine
box magazine noun
Definition of box magazine
: a magazine for a repeating firearm which consists of a detachable metal box that fits into the receiver and from which the cartridges are fed into the chamber by the action of the piece
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
M-Tecs,
OK Sir, I Stand corrected, I APOLOGIZE. Please PROPERLY Define the Magazine on the M1903 Springfield and M1917 Enfield Rifles. We must keep up apperances, eh, wot?
Adam
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...gazine-rifles/
Nearly all bolt-action-rifle shooters have reloaded guns without external, detachable box magazines. Internal-magazine rifles are more the rule than the exception in the hunting, target shooting and competition worlds. But, few outside of military circles have had to cram cartridges into their gun's action with completely numb fingers, in darkness or when needing to "get back on the gun" and shoot before being shot. Whether shooting one of these "old school" turnbolts in a tactical environment, up against dangerous game or simply on a timed course of fire, it is necessary to develop techniques to get rounds into the internal magazine as efficiently as possible.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
M-Tecs,
So the ANSWER is WHAT? What is the PROPER descriptive ammo supply term for the ammo "bunker" on the bolt M1903 and M1917 rifles?
I want an answer and not a paragraph of 'fluff." Like the old saying goes, "Please give me the Time, and do tell me how to build a clock."
Adam
Last edited by Adam Helmer; 04-28-2020 at 02:35 PM.
Once again do you Comprehend , John Garand was not making a stripper clip for a box magazine and the 1918 took a detachable magazine as does the m-14 you like to think you are the last word and a expert , but you show your misunderstanding .
I will take the word of men I know and knew who used them in combat , that there was nothing wrong with the en bloc in the M1 Garand rifle , over someone who shot on a range with one .
Hey what , you english or hispanic , seem to slip in with words that have no bearing , and appearances is something for snobs .
I do know what the U.S. military had in inventory at the time and for a long time after , still had 30-40 krag to , I suppose you would have preferred its magazine top up feature over a en bloc .
Internal Magazine or simply magazine.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-28-2020 at 03:13 PM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Regardless of your statement, the facts are that there weren't shortages of m1 clips while the rifle was in service. It was planned that way, ergo, "Oh, let's package M1 ammo in LOADED CLIPS. Otherwise these poorr GI's would have nothing but single loaders, just like Rourke's Drift"(crying and whining sounds).
Yes, there were documented occurrences when units were issued .30-06 in 5 rd chargers, probbly for BAR's, along with wooden cases of empty M1 clips, and had to detail a couple of soldiers in the unit to fill em up. But the problem you imagine just didn't exist. The military packed the ammo in bandoliers, ready to load. ( C'mon, we've all seen "Battleground".) M1 carbine ammo, 7.62 NATO, and 5.56 is packed in bandoliers, too, on stripper clips, requiring another step or two to load into detachable magazines. But that is immaterial to the discussion.
So, a moot point. Once again, you're using your limited highpower competition experiences to judge a brilliant pre WW2 battle rifle.
Btw, I seem to remember the Brits won that engagement at Rourke's Drift.
One other point in comparing the garand to BARS and M14 mags. the Garand was a SEMI AUTOMATIC rifle only. The M14 and BAR were SELECTIVE FIRE rifles capable of full auto fire at rates of around 600 rds per minute. Hence the need for more capacity.
I have had firing positions on a couple ranges where I did have to adjust my position to keep the M1A's mag off the ground slightly.
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