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Thread: M1 Garand Clip: Loading Basics and Troubleshooting Tips

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy
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    15meter,

    That Garand Clip was the PERFECT solution to a non-existent Problem. How many trillion soup cans WENT to make the clip that a magazine would have made unnecessary? How many TRILLION clips were used in WWII that would have been better used for planes, guns or whatever? Also, those clips NEEDED to be pretty specific to work in the Garand. The M1903 or BAR magazine would have freed up tons of iron for the war effort.

    IF the Mannlicher Clip system was so great, why did it die out?

    Adam

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by tominboise View Post
    The 8 round clip is also way cheaper to manufacture than a box mag, which has at least 4 distinct parts that must be made and then it has to be assembled.
    tom,

    Do the Math. You do NOT make ONE Clip for each Garand, you need to make trillions of clips for every Garand and EACH MUST be tweeked to function in every Garand. I would swap "4 parts" to ensure a rifle functions than to make clips that must work in every rifle on the planet.

    After WWII, the U.S. dropped many Garands to groups needing arms for various reasons. The biggest complaint was that CLIP for the Garand! No clip and all the .30-06 ammo in the world is only "fed" Single Shot into any Garand!

    A Magazine would have rendered a better combat arm.

    Adam

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy derek45's Avatar
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    I'm surprised by all the enBloc hate.

    Many years ago, I knew an old service rifle shooter, who was in the army when the transitioned from the Garand to the M14. He said nobody liked the M14 better. He said the magazines were clumsy, bulky, and you were in deep sheit if you lost one.

    My young dumb *** said, yeah, but what about firepower.

    He blasted thru 3 clips with lightning speed.

    I was impressed.

    I've owned a few M1A's but my CMP Garand is never for sale.

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  4. #24
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    It's not hate it's just understanding that the enBloc system had limitations. History has shown it was inferior to the box magazine system. If it was a superior system all modern military small arms would be using it. EnBlocs are now mostly just a footnote in history. I wonder why?
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."

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  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy dpoe001's Avatar
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    When i told my father i bought a Garand the first thing he said to me was Be careful loading it you don't want Garand thumb. Then i showed him my broken pinky (thought i missed some cosmelene after i put it back together).

  6. #26
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    Everybody should get a dose of "M1 Thumb" at least once as an initiation to the Garand, and to make sure you don't do it again! It worked for me as a lad.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    15meter,

    That Garand Clip was the PERFECT solution to a non-existent Problem. How many trillion soup cans WENT to make the clip that a magazine would have made unnecessary? How many TRILLION clips were used in WWII that would have been better used for planes, guns or whatever? Also, those clips NEEDED to be pretty specific to work in the Garand. The M1903 or BAR magazine would have freed up tons of iron for the war effort.

    IF the Mannlicher Clip system was so great, why did it die out?

    Adam
    I tend to trust the opinion of old WW2 soldiers that actually used them like my Dad. He saw the advantage over a 03, even though he like the 03, the Garand was sought after if they weren't issued one. He was issued a M1 Carbine, and threw it away and got a Garand as soon as he could. This has been the story from several old friends that were GIs in the War. It was the best weapon at that time in history for a soldier, and nobody complained about it back then.

  8. #28
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    A few vets fought in WWII, Korean and Vietnam. I don't know any that fought in all 3.

    I have known and spoken with several that fought with the M1 in Korea and the M-14 in Vietnam. Of the ones that used both in combat to a man they preferred the M-14 for combat verse the M1.

    Patton had great praise for the M1. Doesn't change the fact that history has proven the M1 with BAR mags like the Beretta BM 59 would have made the greatest battle rifle of WWII greater. Per General Patton it was the greatest battle implement ever devised, yet it was obsolete by the mid 50's.

    I do know one Vietnam Vet. that had very little nice to say about the M1-D he used.

    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...approval-hype/
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-08-2020 at 01:58 AM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."

    – Amber Veal

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    tom,

    Do the Math. You do NOT make ONE Clip for each Garand, you need to make trillions of clips for every Garand and EACH MUST be tweeked to function in every Garand. I would swap "4 parts" to ensure a rifle functions than to make clips that must work in every rifle on the planet.

    After WWII, the U.S. dropped many Garands to groups needing arms for various reasons. The biggest complaint was that CLIP for the Garand! No clip and all the .30-06 ammo in the world is only "fed" Single Shot into any Garand!

    A Magazine would have rendered a better combat arm.

    Adam
    Not sure what you mean by having to tweak each en bloc clip to function in every Garand. I have 7 Garands and several hundred en blocs and they all seem to work fine as is, mix and match. But I might be missing something. The standard ammo load in WWII was 10 en blocs in a cartridge belt and one or two bandoliers that carried 6 enblocs each. So with a full cartridge belt and two bandoliers would equal 176 rounds. Call it 180, which would equal 9 20 round box mags from a BAR. I do not know the cost nor weight of 22 enblocs versus 9 BAR mags. Would be interesting to find out.

  10. #30
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    tom,

    Rather than tweek, perhaps exact would have been better. I meant to say the quality control to ensure the clips would work in all Garands had to have been a task.

    If you look at the WWII British soldier, he did not carry 8 or10 box magazines. He had a box magazine in his SMLE and pouches or bandoleers of 5-round chargers.

    Be Well.

    Adam

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2A-Jay View Post
    I love Garand Rifles but hate M1 Thumb
    keep your thumb out of the way, and you won't get one.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    tom,

    Rather than tweek, perhaps exact would have been better. I meant to say the quality control to ensure the clips would work in all Garands had to have been a task.

    If you look at the WWII British soldier, he did not carry 8 or10 box magazines. He had a box magazine in his SMLE and pouches or bandoleers of 5-round chargers.

    Be Well.

    Adam
    OK, makes sense. Thanks!

  13. #33
    Boolit Man Nick Adams's Avatar
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    What's interesting to me is the input of real-world users of the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, et. al.

    So I can highly recommend 'U.S. Infantry Weapons in Combat,' by Mark Goodwin (foreword by Scott Duff). The book is essentially a compilation of personal experiences with these weapons from the soldiers and Marines who actually used them in combat. You'll find much M1 love in their accounts, and not so much love for the little .30 Carbine. On any view Goodwin's book makes for insightful, 'in their own words' reading. Definitely something useful to do while you're sheltering in place as the Corvid cooties rage outside your door.

    There's also the fact that starting from the point of bolt lock-back, I can reload my M1 Garand faster with a fresh 8-rd clip than the guy next to me can reload his M1A, AK-47, or in most cases his AR, with a fresh magazine.

    I say 'in most cases' with the AR because while I've seen some guys who've drilled long enough to be able do fast mag changes, your average AR owner who's just a weekend range-plinker isn't one of them.

    For the M1A/AK/AR shooters, it's the extra step of having to physically extract the empty mag from their weapon before a new (loaded) one can be inserted; whereas for the Garand shooter, the M1's internal clip-ejection mechanism eliminates that step.

    As far as speed goes, the real training point for M1 users - once you've mastered the technique of proper clip insertion - is to have a fresh clip quickly accessible or, better still, ready to be inserted into the open action, ... which is why you'll often see pictures of GIs from both WW2 and Korea with an 8-rd en bloc hanging on the sling of their M1s.

    Even today you could do worse than an M1 Garand kept handy for personal defense or homestead protection, especially in rural areas.

    And while there are no flies on the old mil-spec '06 ball ammo, a Garand chambered in .308/7.62 makes a lot of sense just from an ammunition-acquisition standpoint, whether you reload or not. I have two M1s in 7.62/.308, and both are super-shooters.
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    Last edited by Nick Adams; 04-09-2020 at 09:28 PM.

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Starting with a loaded rifle to fire 80 rounds the M-14 requires 3 reloads. The M1 requires 9.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."

    – Amber Veal

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    Starting with a loaded rifle to fire 80 rounds the M-14 requires 3 reloads. The M1 requires 9.
    M-Tecs,

    Interesting Math Lesson! I own several M1s and had 3 Match M14s in the past when I shot on my state team at Perry. Someone in a prior post mentioned the "Rattle Battle" Match, which was my favorite match that we shot every month.

    In that "mad minute" no one ever shot 60 rounds in that minute, but we tried. By my observation, starting with a loaded rifle, M1 or M14, when the targets appeared the M14 shooter had to make 2 magazine changes while the Garand guy had to load 7 clips. I preferred the M14.

    Adam
    Last edited by Adam Helmer; 04-09-2020 at 10:26 AM.

  16. #36
    Boolit Buddy derek45's Avatar
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  17. #37
    Boolit Man Nick Adams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derek45 View Post
    Yep, ... a mag-fed rifle will auto-eject itself at the darnedest time.

    Never seen an M1 do that.

    They just run and run 'til you hear that 'ping' thing.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    It's not hate it's just understanding that the enBloc system had limitations. History has shown it was inferior to the box magazine system. If it was a superior system all modern military small arms would be using it. EnBlocs are now mostly just a footnote in history. I wonder why?
    I think you're looking at this with rose colored glasses, re: comparing the M1 rifle designed in the 1920's and 30's with the rifles (and magazines) that evolved as a result of WW2/Korean War combat. When it was introduced, it was brilliant. WW2 combat showed it to be lacking in magazine capacity, which was not foreseen in the pre-war era. Hence designs evolved.
    You're comparing the 8 round clip to an external, removable magazine. Try a comparison by loading the enbloc 8 round clip into an M1 with 5-round Springfield 03, Mauser 98k, Enfield or Mosin stripper clips into their respective rifles. Better comparison. Steel, btw, or brass, were used for stripper clips, which were always discarded.
    Last edited by fgd135; 04-27-2020 at 01:50 PM.

  19. #39
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    Something to put this in perspective. The Garands 8 round enbloc clip was way ahead of other systems for the average solider at the time which was the 5 round stripper clip. one reason for the mag in the bar was it slightly slowed the of fire removing and inserting saving barrels. Comparing the garand to what replaced it is apples to oranges. Even 308 and 223 was issued in 5 or 10 round stripper clips with a adapter to feed it into mags in the field.Damage or Lose the magazine or clip and any rifle becomes a single shot. The garand still had the follower and blind cut to aid single loading. Single loading a M14 with out the mag is a pain and tricky an AR is almost impossible with out the mag.
    The biggest drawback to the enbloc clip was the training of the time. Troops were trained to eject a partial and fill before moving this left a lot of live ammo behind them. Garand ammo was issued in bandoleers in clips.

    Compared to other troop rifles of the era, Patton hit the nail on the head. Best battle rifle produced. Ars have been converted or up graded to belt feed. Why not throw the belt feed weapons in also. While the enbloc clip requires precision manufacturing once the dies are running they just drop out of the press ready to go. The Ar and M14 mags come from the presses and need assembly and some welding to get a completed unit and just as much precision in manufacturing. These also require more machinery to make. 1 press to form the body one press for the follower and a press for the base plate then a spring winder for that.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    Well my thoughts are I like the ejection of the clip , no button or lever just reach for the next en bloc , by the way my father fought in Korea with one , and he said its amazing how fast you can load them , he laughs at the people who talk about the ping noise telling anyone you are empty as his comment is before they can be up and coming at you you are ready to shoot again , Yes he liked the Bar also .

    British had a 10 round rifle but it was bolt . was meant to be loaded from strippers , germans had a 5 round bolt , yes there were semi autos and full auto rifles on both sides but only the U.S. had made it the main battle rifle style , good rifles so are m-14 and ar 15 rifles .

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check