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Thread: Electrician advice needed

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightman View Post
    I beg to disagree. The amp load at the end of the run is a major part of the voltage drop formula.
    I didn't explain myself very well. It takes a much larger wire size to prevent excessive voltage drop at 250 ft with 20 amp load than the size of wire to just carry 20 amps.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by willowbend View Post
    Drag the shed closer to the house.. lol
    I was seriously thinking this same thing. If the Price of a Romex extension cord is more than you can afford right now...and that is lots cheaper than doing it correctly, and our CB Electricians have pointed out it is a serious mistake to run a Romex extension cord. It won't cost much to hook up your truck to the shed, and slide it toward your house...then you can use a proper heavy duty 20' extension cord connected to an outside outlet and then you'll also be much closer to your sickly Wife and Baby.
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  3. #43
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    Lloyd Smale's Avatar
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    yup ohms law. Lower the voltage and you raise the amperage. amps=watts divided by voltage. If your going to pull close to a 100 amps start up you need (for code here anyway) at least a 1/0 aluminum or #2 copper conductor and a 100 amp service panel. I was a lineman and for a few years we chose between a 4/0 aluminum or 1/0 aluminum underground service. Our guidelines were anything over 100 amp entrance got 4/0 any 100 amp service that was shorter then 200 feet got 1/0. Even a 100 amp longer then 200 got 4/0. That is a 3 wire service with two 120 legs. We ended up dumping the 1/0 and 4/0 and standardized on 3/0 for everything. No way your going to want to run a 100 amp 120 volt load 300 feet long on even #8 wire.

    Youll eventually pay the price when your pump burns up. What some guys fail to factor in is load. A one hp motor with no load running (not start up) pulls @750 watts So @6 or 7 amps at a 120 volts. Add the load of pumping water and your amperage more then doubles. Start up voltage doubles not just the motor running amps but the pumping amps. So even if your pump was 4 feed from the main entrance you talking 30-40 amps. Now add to that lightmans correct answer in that amperage does increase with because of voltage drop caused by the increased resistance of small conductor. Yup you an go to menards and buy everything you need and do it yourself. That sure doesn't mean that you should do a substandard job to save a few bucks. The savings come from doing it yourself. If anything I would look at it differently. The money I save could be spent to buy even bigger wire. That way down the line if I ever need more power out there I don't have to start over. If your the type that duct tapes broken things to keep them running or have a drawer full of jb weld and gorilla glue and the when the muffler on your truck went bad you put a used one on the truck and hung it with a coat hanger then you SHOULDNT BE WIRING ANYTHING. Like I said CODES WERE WROTE TO PROTECT YOU AND TO PROTECT SOMEONE THAT BUYS YOUR PROPERTY 10 YEARS FROM NOW THAT DOESNT UNDERSTAND ELECTRICITY. If your getting your advice from a cast bullet fourm then hopefully you live close to the firehouse and hospital. Kind of like going to a frat house party and asking for loading advice! Electricity can KILL YOU! DONT TAKE MY ADVICE OR ANYONE ELSE HERE. ASK YOUR INSPECTOR WHAT SIZED CONDUCTOR IS CODE!! Then if anything don't go smaller go bigger!
    Quote Originally Posted by lightman View Post
    I beg to disagree. The amp load at the end of the run is a major part of the voltage drop formula.
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 04-01-2020 at 07:11 AM.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    For a 100 amp service Lloyd is correct. For a 20 amp load #8 THWN or #6 USE-2 is adequate.

    The other thing no one has mentioned is, if you run the service and make it permanent, by NEC you are required to either re-establish a ground at the new location or run a separate ground with the service conductors. Basically you're splitting the ground and neutral, providing a complete and separate path for fault current.
    "In general, the art of government is to take as much money as possible from one class of citizens and give it to another class of citizens" Voltaire'

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  5. #45
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    All of the obvious factors have been pointed out on this thread.
    Voltage drop, Cost of cable, How will the wire be installed (buried? , laid on the ground temporarily? ) How often do you need it? (Will a generator be more useful? cheaper?) Can you move the shed ? (The winner for thinking outside the box BTW !)

    How about an inverter? Could a vehicle be driven to the shed and used for temporary power?

    Lots of good thinking here.

  6. #46
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    Bazoo, here are my only 2 thoughts, I agree with most, call a pro and see how much you can offset the cost by digging in your own conduit and such things.

    Things to think of if not properly installed (no matter who):

    If anything goes wrong, electrocution, fire and so on the insurance company will find you at fault and likely not cover damages or injuries

    Also, when the time enviably arrives and you have to leave the house and you decide to sell anything incorrectly installed will be your responsibility to remove/replace/repair.

    I grew up under the tutelage of a journeyman lineman and don't doubt my capability, but these two things keep me from doing any major repairs myself.

    The same thought process holds true for natural gas/LP.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master .45Cole's Avatar
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    Start watching CL and FB for people selling wire. I go to auctions all the time too, best place to get construction materials and it seems that all hte business auctions have wire for sale. Renting a machine is the best bet. Sometimes it's hard but you have to come up with the cash rather than do it incorrectly. How far out of town do you live?

  8. #48
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    Doing work yourself does not automatically equate to voiding insurance policies. Furthermore, having work completed by a licensed professional doesn't guarantee high quality either. I've seen plenty of shoddy work completed by "professionals".

    As for selling something that isn't up to code, that is up to the buyer & seller. I've been involved with "as is" transactions as both the buyer and seller.
    That being said, dangerous construction is irresponsible. Not because of insurance or future sales, but because life, limb and property shouldn't be put at risk to save a penny.

  9. #49
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    I know almost nothing about electricity, even though I did do the basic wiring install in my loading shed. Then I hired an electrician to check my work and complete the install. My reason for adding to this thread is to suggest that when you are digging a trench for the wire, you add room for a telephone line. I did that for my big shop but not for the loading shed and I regret that.
    R.D.M.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    but because life, limb and property shouldn't be put at risk to save a penny.
    Petrol, I couldn't agree more with your entire post but this, the above, stuck out. I wish that simple concept could be pounded into the skull of every jack leg cheapskate who hooks up his generator through the dryer receptacle...or any other 240V outlet. I'm probably stepping on some toes and if so, so what. If I am, you're wrong and it is impossible to justify especially with so many economical lock out means available today. My Dad was also a lineman and had someone back fed a distribution system and killed him....I couldn't be responsible for what I might have done.
    "In general, the art of government is to take as much money as possible from one class of citizens and give it to another class of citizens" Voltaire'

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  11. #51
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    If you are doing serious wood working you NEED 220 volts. Got a table saw when my father-in-law passed many years ago. It had a 110/220 1 hp motor. Had 110 in garage so that is how I used it. About 5 years ago I got a 200 amp panel installed so I could have central air. At that time I had the electrician install a 220 volt circuit in the garage. Converted the table saw to 220 and bought a used 220 volt 8" joiner. The table saw cuts extremely nice . No strain and the cerf is very smooth. Once the government get COVID-19 under control I intend to move to the greater Portland area. New place will have a fairly large workshop. New place may have a shop or I will have it built. It will have 220 power for several tools. It may cost a bit more at first but it will be more than worth it on my first project and a bonus for all subsequent projects.

  12. #52
    Boolit Buddy jessdigs's Avatar
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    It would be a lot safer underground in a conduit.
    But I'm an equipment operator so stuff like that is easy for me. Not so much for the average Joe.


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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackthorn View Post
    I know almost nothing about electricity, even though I did do the basic wiring install in my loading shed. Then I hired an electrician to check my work and complete the install. My reason for adding to this thread is to suggest that when you are digging a trench for the wire, you add room for a telephone line. I did that for my big shop but not for the loading shed and I regret that.
    Always install extra conduit, the ditch is expensive, conduit is cheap. But for phone? Where can you buy a decent corded phone? You have to buy cordless to get any quality at all and cordless reaches my shop just fine. All those millions of miles of CAT Whatever phone line installed in new houses to meet building code and everybody went Cell, WiFi, cordless, WIRELESS. LOL
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Paso View Post
    Always install extra conduit, the ditch is expensive, conduit is cheap. But for phone? Where can you buy a decent corded phone? You have to buy cordless to get any quality at all and cordless reaches my shop just fine. All those millions of miles of CAT Whatever phone line installed in new houses to meet building code and everybody went Cell, WiFi, cordless, WIRELESS. LOL
    My thoughts too. A cat6 cable would be worthwhile though.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharps4590 View Post
    Petrol, I couldn't agree more with your entire post but this, the above, stuck out. I wish that simple concept could be pounded into the skull of every jack leg cheapskate who hooks up his generator through the dryer receptacle...or any other 240V outlet. I'm probably stepping on some toes and if so, so what. If I am, you're wrong and it is impossible to justify especially with so many economical lock out means available today. My Dad was also a lineman and had someone back fed a distribution system and killed him....I couldn't be responsible for what I might have done.
    This so many times over. One of my biggest fears on storm is somebody hooking up a generator wrong and back feeding the line. Most people don’t realize that a transformer works both ways. It will step primary voltage (what’s on the line) down to secondary voltage (what you use in your house/shop/store etc) but it will also step secondary voltage up to primary. As an example, a large part of my system is 14,400 volts. Most of our secondary voltage is 120/240 volts. If you plug a 120/240 volt generator into your house and that electricity makes it back to a transformer, you just put 14,400 volts back on a line that was supposed to be dead.


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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackthorn View Post
    I know almost nothing about electricity, even though I did do the basic wiring install in my loading shed. Then I hired an electrician to check my work and complete the install. My reason for adding to this thread is to suggest that when you are digging a trench for the wire, you add room for a telephone line. I did that for my big shop but not for the loading shed and I regret that.
    Do telephone land lines lines still exist ... the telephone co. converted my land line phone into a wireless system about 5 years ago...after 47 years our true land line went wireless .
    You may not need to dig a trench and lay a line in it...check with the local phone co. first .
    Gary
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
    Do telephone land lines lines still exist ... the telephone co. converted my land line phone into a wireless system about 5 years ago...after 47 years our true land line went wireless .
    You may not need to dig a trench and lay a line in it...check with the local phone co. first .
    Gary
    Three years ago, the City started to rebuild the roads and utilities in my neighborhood. The plan is to put everything underground that was above ground. It took the Phone Co (CenturyLink) a while, but they finally bored a new wire (landline) to my house late last fall. I never liked where the old phone wire box was, so I had them mount a new box in a new location...it was quite the ordeal. Among other things, they had to install a new ground post, since the one for the house wasn't nearby.
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  18. #58
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    Lloyd Smale's Avatar
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    yup another important thing not to cheap out on is making sure your adequately grounded. we are required in our county to have two ground rods driven at least 10 feet apart at any building entrance and wired with at least 6 solid copper. These are not codes (laws) to make it more expensive for you. There there to save your life if something goes wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by sharps4590 View Post
    For a 100 amp service Lloyd is correct. For a 20 amp load #8 THWN or #6 USE-2 is adequate.

    The other thing no one has mentioned is, if you run the service and make it permanent, by NEC you are required to either re-establish a ground at the new location or run a separate ground with the service conductors. Basically you're splitting the ground and neutral, providing a complete and separate path for fault current.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  19. #59
    Boolit Master WRideout's Avatar
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    Some larger cities (such as Pittsburgh) have stores that sell usable surplus or salvaged construction materials. Some of them are called railroad salvage, among other names. It might be worth looking there for wire and etc.

    Wayne
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  20. #60
    Electricity is not a "hobby" thing...
    Consult with YOUR LOCAL electrical inspector in regards to your questions, to get the REAL answers you need.
    They are there to assist you ,not hamper you, it is their job.
    You may want to check with an actual Electrician for proper install (after checking with inspector)if it is beyond your your ability to do the actual install.
    This will preclude the possibility of injury/destruction and/or death from a "home-owner mod install".
    I have over fifty(50) years of experience as an electrician, have all my fingers and have seen some truly UNSAFE installs.
    Good Luck with your project, be safe!

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