If you read the Fouling Shot and some of the member’s tribulations with cast in the 22’s there may be something of interest in there. Generally the findings were 22’s were hard to shoot truly small aggregates with, and......(gasp) segregating bullets by weight is overrated as an accuracy aid.
If one keeps an open mind there is much of interest. This was match shooting, so this was an accuracy obsession by any standard.
I spent the first few weeks not weight sorting bullets, the results were ok, but it was clear that they could get better. I am very serious about bullet inspection and prep, visual inspection for sharp edges, no holes or pits and base inspection for proper sprue cuts. I tend to be anal with any cast bullet I make, even blaster pistol ammo as the best bullets will always provide the best possible outcome. I would disagree with the statement that weight sorting is not needed. I would also agree that small aggregates with cast are very difficult compared to a jacketed match grade bullet. Weight sorting resulted in more shots cutting and more in one hole. So far, we have tested 2 different colors of PC, one provides a very thin coat and one is a thicker coat, we are also comparing copper to aluminum gas checks. We have concentrated our efforts on the NATO style NOE 60 grain bullet, although we have worked with others this summer as well. The tiny groups come from a fairly well defined velocity window that when re-created with a different powder seems to hold true unless the burn rate is significantly different. We work wide and fine step ladders. Often 2 tenths and the work possibles in a 1 tenth window in various weather. We have worked with H110 Data powder, 296, 4227, Unique, BL-C(2) and 2015br and 2400. 2400 has provided the most reliable results so far. 2015br has been very good to us as well, it is the best I have found for the Sierra 1400. Until I started to PC bullets, I never even considered cast in a bench rifle. I did not want to take a chance of leading up the bore or the throat in one of my guns. Shooting PC in 22 TCM warmed me up to the idea that the 221 FB might actually work. I think life would have been easier if we had been working with something in 30 caliber, I suspect the 6mm is just as unforgiving as 22 caliber in regards to cast bullets.
After 30+ years of casting and bench shooting as a hobby, I have learned a lot and it seems that I learn more each trip out. I love to learn. My mentor many years ago taught me that conventional wisdom is just that and it should always be questioned. The Fouling Shot is an amazing source, I have met Veral Smith a couple of times and got to pick his brain as well. This hobby has so many sages and so many more that think they are. I was also blessed to learn many of the finer points of bench work from a gent that was in his 70's and 80's when I met him. He had suffered a stroke and really only had one side that worked and he still shot tight 1 hole groups, we helped him set up, set targets and watched in amazement as target after target rolled off full of 1 hole groups. That gentleman created my obsession with the 221 Fireball and Harry McGowan. I was given his 222 Mag 40XBR after his passing by his wife. I will always have the rifle in my safe. I have not shot in competition since the birth of my oldest daughter, I really do not miss the pressures. Shooting with her and teaching her what I can about this discipline has been very rewarding. She helps make the bullets and the ammo that we shoot and is learning about the finer points of bullet fit, proper seating and many of the tiny nuances that I did not learn until I was in my 30's. She so wants to shoot a bench match, she understands that she still does not have a great chance of winning or even placing, but she wants to feel the pressure and meet the people. Unfortunately, the sport is kinda dead in east central IL and the ISRA range is 2 hours away and I just can't afford it. When I was learning, most of the major ranges had matches and events.
I am lucky to own 500 pcs of Lapua brass. I purchased the first 100 when it was on sale for $70, this stuff is NOT cheap, but there was NO other brass available besides Norma which cost more. Lapua brass is work of art, each piece is like a fine jewelry to me. The other 400 pcs I won with my friend during xmas sweepstakes at Powder Valley and I traded him reloaded 600 rounds of .223 for 200 pcs of brass LOL. I actually had a choice to pick any brass and looking back I should have got some 223 and 308.
I also converted my own from LC as well as I traded with vendor (Matt) here in the past for his converted brass. He had a unique way of doing it, using progressive press and 2 rem jet forming dies (that formed Rem Jet brass from 357) in stages on progressive he said he lost no brass, while I was just using Lee FL die and lost 25-30% of the brass to splits even though I annealed the brass. I used my mini lathe to turn the necks which I believe was better method but slower. Matt used reamer to ream the necks which was faster. I believe turning necks is more superior because the brass necks are tapered and uneven too, by turning you end up removing the taper and if it's uneven on one side it cleans it up. Reaming doesn't accomplish that. If only Starline could produce the brass I wouldn't have to convert it but I have plenty of brass now.
I can't wrap my head around how is it possible to achieve one hole groups at 100 yards with such high standard deviation for 41fps!
I measured my NOE plug, it's .2225 first stage and .2264 2nd stage. I used lee paste lube and qtip to lube inside the neck before I expand, I found that expanding was smooth and effortless and seating the bullet was the same, I didn't go up to 2nd stage because I saw no reason to expand, there was no lead or PC shaving of any kind occuring, I am using RCBS gold match die to seat, it has a sliding bushing inside that aligns the bullet straight to the neck and now I don't need to apply Lee FCD afterwards. Also I purchased Redding neck sizer but realized unfortunately it still requires neck lube, the dry Redding lube I need to order is long overdue. Lee doesn't make neck collet sizer for 221FB but I did convert one from .223 on the lathe and it works! I am thinking if the casting bullet is success I can make the new center rod for Lee collet neck sizer measuring .223" maybe even .224 so I won't have to expand the necks with NOE anymore, just neck size them and good to go. I found that chamfering with VLD chamfer is the secret to avoid lead shaving.
I have some Shooter's World Blackout powder I want to try, it's similar to 1680 and lists the load data for Hornet, so it should work for 221 FB as well.
I have converted brass, but not for the fireball. That SD was across several shooting sessions in weather ranging from low 60's to low 90's. The separate sessions do not have that SD. That is 4 sessions of 10 shots each. Just a study of the effects of temperature on my load. I currently use Redding Competition pro dies in FL, non bushed neck and micrometer seater. When I started I was using RCBS dies for the old girl. I lube the inside of the necks with dry graphite that is mixed in with number 7 shot, each case goes in for a quick twist and then sizing. I use the RCBS competition dies for 222 mag, 223 and 30/06 but never found that die for 221 FB. the 222/223 die is to long to work with the 221 FB. Yes the long chamfer tool is a god send. I really like the idea of a custom expander ball/rod, but I can't make such a beast so the NOE will have to do. My method has not resulted in any shaving of lead, even with plain base bullets. It really is a fine / fun caliber to chase.
I recently picked up CFE Pistol and may venture down that road with the Fireball. It may be a bit fast, but i also have recently picked up some CFE223 and will likely try it. May not get this done this year as cool and windy is about to become our norm.
That's a nice tip about #7 shot and dry graphite. I actually have a 16oz of powdered dry graphite I ordered off amazon back when I was starting to reload someone on youtube said it's a good way to run this through a powder measure to "season" it.... well it made a huge mess out of it but I still got the graphite and I got some some lead shot, not sure which number but it's small enough. Does Redding use the same dry graphite in their refill pucks? I was about to order it.
The RCBS die I use is Gold Medal even though it's very similar to competition for some reason the competition has more negative feedback on MidwayUSA, people claim it produces too much run out. This is what I got: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011638043 It requires extended shellholder, so it sounds like this is all you need to use it with your competition die.
I ordered mine specifically for 221 FB and it was on sale. I used it to load .223 as well, even on progressive Hornady press but the fit is very close, had to screw the locking nut a bit over loading window but it worked. Some years later I said screw it, I am going to order a dedicated die for .223 which should fit better - well imagine my surprise when I received the package it was exactly the same die and NO it didn't fit any better! The only difference is that fireball has extended shellholder which I didn't receive it originally but RCBS promptly sent it to me for free.
I don't know about CFE Pistol, but I've tried CFE Black and it shot really well! It also produced most insane velocity, 50gr V-max 5 shot avg 3346fps avg, extreme spread 6 fps! SD 2.9. The group was 0.66 MOA. This was with 19.8gr which is max load so approach it carefully. Note this was measured with Labradar and exceeds hodgdon data by almost 150 fps. I've heard and confirmed the powder performs best when it's full case or slightly compressed; because of this it might not be suitable for cast, I've also used it in 300 blk where it performed poorly except with very light cast bullet RCBS 115 RN (120gr drop). Other powders that performed really well for me Reloader 7, IMR 4198.
Not sure about the RCBS Pro/comp dies... I have been using the windowed ones with the extended shell holder for years. I really like them and they seem to produce great ammo. With the cast bullet, the Redding micrometer seater does seem to like the profile of the bullet better and is more accurate when seating. I think that all one would need with the RCBS die is a longer shell holder to use it for 221 properly. I may call them and ask that question today.
I think I see the difference, the Pro lists a free floating seater stem, I think all of mine are attached to the micrometer head.
I weight sort myself...but what was fascinating was the finding that even fairly severe blemishes and weight differences made little difference in accuracy. We may disagree, but the results were as reported. This was for 100 and 200 yard match shooting. I invite your reading of the results if you are interested. The way the testing was carried out was of significant statistical relevance. John Alexander did much of this while trying to make 22s match capable.
Such findings may not be relevant for all shooting but to some extent are supported by some of my results in testing the effects of variation. It is tempting to figure that OCD procedures always produce favorable results but cast bullets often do not respond to obsessive jacketed bullet accuracy procedures. Statistically relevant findings are just that.
Along the way it seems that fit of the bullet is more important than small variations in weight by my findings as well.....as in, is the bullet correctly fit to the throat that is present? Does the bore riding design actually bore ride?
The disparate methods of pursuing accuracy make shooting a cast bullet fascinating and the fact the bullet itself can vary in dimensionality makes the pursuit more challenging. Along the way it is also found that a gentle launch and moderate pressure and speed yield positives in accuracy.
It has for me, anyway, and I suspect most others.
Do you have a copy of the article? I have not been a member for a few years.
I don’t have a copy but a search of the forum yields considerable discussion of the effects of weight variation and on cast bullet 22 accuracy.
The one and only time I dropped a mould it put a ding on the nose of one of the cavities in the double cavity 225438 I was using. Dismayed I bought a new mould and compared the dinged cavity bullet to the undinged. No difference in group size was noted which was interesting. Also compared it to new mould. No change.
The 190 Ranch Dog shot out of my 350 RM is a very accurate shooter and bullets with huge sprue divots in their bases shot just as well as weighed and visually perfect bullets did.
When doing accuracy testing with a 308 and small game loads it was noticed that substantial variations in weight and finish appearance of the bullets produced no statistically significant differences in accuracy at the ranges they would be used. Among other similar findings over the years.
Such gave me a lot to think about, certainly, and probably is why I read the previously mentioned findings with some interest. I did some of my own tests in 22.
I suspect Mr Alexander may respond to a PM.
It has been a fun journey, that is for sure. We are about out of the season for bench work here, will be cold and really windy in the mornings before long. Will dig more.
What it was, was a contentious thread.
PM sent.
Am curious....given this is not an ordinary chamber what kind of clearance is there between chamber neck and cartridge neck when cast bullet of the desired diameter is seated? I presume this dimension is such that cast bullet diameter cannot much exceed jacketed bullet diameter?
I am a Dacron user to address the ES and SD issues that occur with partially filled cases myself. As often I shoot plainbase bullets this helps reduce gas cutting and the rifle shoots cleaner over a string of shots as well.
The chamber is tight (it was Harry's match 221FB reamer), but it does allow for a .225 bullet. But, that is all that you will get in it without neck turning or reaming if using factory 221 FB brass. I have to be careful that the bullet is very straight and that I only expand what I can crimp. So, a chamfered case mouth is a must with cast and the chamfer with the VLD bullet taper works the best. The crimp is very minimal, but compared to non-crimped equal loads accuracy is a tiny bit better with the crimp. The crimp is more of a neck straighten than anything. I would love to try a bushing neck die to set the final diameter as opposed to a slight crimp. With the bushing die I could set the exact tension, repeatably. This summer project has driven my OCD to the extremes. She and I have shot it more this summer than the last several summers.
BTW, if not said before... the bore rider is riding and recovered low velocity shots show it is pretty darn even. I am not sure it would bore ride if not for the PC. It might, but it would not be by much.
So for an honest average over multiple groups, how are you doing at 100?
With jacketed match grade bullets, under dime size with 20% being true one hole, not one hole cutting. With the cast bullet in the pic above, and 5 shot groups.. dime to penny size for most groups. She rushes some shots and it kills otherwise 1 hole cutting groups. She is shooting several that are in the .37" to .42" range center to center on the widest spread. As you can see, she strings shots, so I am working on consistent shooting style as I assume this is a stock touch issue either in the stock neck or at the butt. I am seeing this same issue when she fires match jacketed bullets, but the groups are tighter. She is short, 5'2", and I think that I need to have her sitting a tad higher by the bench. this is something I intend to try during our next outing. I wish my stock was length adjustable, I would shorten it for her. But, I am not inclined to replace a weighted, glass bedded McMillian bench stock, but I may have to in order to improve her ability and confidence.Originally Posted by 35remington
The CBA has found they cannot get aggregates much below an inch keeping in mind they shoot ten shot groups. They have records that beat that but those are records not averages.
If you can honestly print five, five shot near one inch groups on the same piece of paper to show they are not cherry picked, and can do that on demand any given day you are doing way better than most of those who post the occasional bragging group and ignore all the rest they shot that don’t look so hot.
I have never believed in “magic powder” or “magic loads.” Once a suitable bullet is found at least several powders are capable of making the same size groups. I also have never believed in tenth grain incrementality being absolutely necessary......as in 26.6 grains of Whizzbang powder is THE load, for the reason that powder lot variation and the availability of other powders makes the idea somewhat moot.
My findings are usually that accuracy is found in a certain range of charge weight with a variety of powders. Haven’t found any unicorns, just loads that work and those that don’t.
The above groups are real and yes Alex can print 5 shot groups like that most days. No magic powder, but a velocity window that makes it perform. We are finding that this bullet and this rifle live for a velocity of around 2550 to 2650 fps. We have been working to tighten them up, but the rest of that target and most of her targets look like the 3 groups in the above photo. She is very ADHD and her excitement in the moment makes it very difficult for her to even keep 4 of 5 cutting. But, the same tendency drives her to try to make the smallest target she can. She is learning to relax and control some of her excitement, as was my goal from day 1 with introducing her to this style of shooting. It was also a good way to start teaching her precision reloading. I have targets with 9 counted targets and a fouler target and with 6 targets and a fouler target. She likes the 6 best because the visual distraction of the 9 gives her concentration problems. Unfortunately, since I never shot bench guns in competition on a regular basis, my record keeping sucks. We save good targets with all data and log on the back any ladder data that did not work... usually with chrono data. But, once a load is dialed in, that is very accurately logged and filed away for replication. Most of my time at a bench was with guys that were good to one that was simply amazing and we spent more time shooting fly targets and groups over coffee and BS as we were all good friends. A few times a summer we would travel as a group to a shoot somewhere and would always watch as one of the guys (Clint) would always place if not win. Upon his passing, his wife gifted me a 40XBR in 222 Mag that Clint wanted the young shooter in the group to have as I was not working with good gear in those days due to cost. Still have that rifle and always will. Have built other 222 Mags since and mainly shoot them, but this one has a special spot in my life.
Where she runs into problems is very windy and variably windy days. She handles mirage fairly well at 20 to 24x, I do not so I shoot at sunrise and she shoots after me. She has only been at this 2 1/2 seasons and 1 season with cast. She wants to compete, next summer I am going to find a venue for her to at least shoot a match. I have not shot a match in 19 years, quit that silliness the year she was to be born. I am not sure what class my rifle would even be in at this point. I read the wind for her, and am trying to help her learn to do so but wind shooting solo is her big weakness. That target above was shot on a day with a very consistent 11-12 mph cross wind. Our shooting lane is half exposed to E-W and N-S wind, but the second half of the 100 yards is pretty much wind free. So, she does shoot with transitional winds often. I have been very happy with her improvement in discipline as this is the most difficult part for her.
Another issue is that she is short, the stringing in her groups, I am sure, is based on some kind of stock contact during trigger pull and initial recoil. I am running a McMillan stock that I fitted to myself and 5'6" to 5'7" inches tall and she is only 5'2". The stock is not adjustable and the stock neck is almost to large for her to use as a trigger reference. I may have to try to acquire an adjustable chassis or at least a butt adjustable stock for her. My stock is weighted, the action was very tightly glass bedded when I installed it and it is a wonderfully stable stock... just does not fit her like it should. OMG the chassis are expensive! Have to place limits on the hobby somewhere. We are basically at the end of our shooting season for this year. Mornings near freezing are just not conducive to this style of shooting. We are really trying to work in 1 or 2 more mornings, but only get to shoot on weekends or a coordinated day out of school and work. The bummer, we only worked with my 222 Mag 2 days this summer, she was so focused on the FB and I did not want to throw distractions at her. We have shot from the bench 2 or 3 weekends a month all summer working on this cast bullet attempt. It started out as a horrible failure, almost told her... see it will not work. But, she wanted to ride out the ugly and see what we could do. Light bullets are a disaster in that gun and should not be in my opinion. 52 and 53 grain match bullets really shine in that rifle. But cast 50-55's just do not want to work. I suspect it is driving band contact or rotational speeds although we have never stripped PC or lead into the bore.
It has really been a fun summer, have not enjoyed shooting bench guns this much since my bench buddies passed away over the years.
The sad part, she is to the point she is out shooting the old man most days.
Instead of replacing the McMillan have you considered shortening it and keeping some spacers for it if you want to shoot it again?
Sounds like a great kid.
Charlie, I had not though of that. The butt is hollow and I have partially filled it with lead shot in some form of adhesive. I do not even remember what now. I could open it up and epoxy in a fitted end plate and go that route. Maybe a good winter project.
YW, I just didn't know if it was a prized possession or what. Some people are reluctant to change things on their own. I am the opposite, add to or modify most things I have.
If you really wanted to get fancy you could get one of those adjustable ones
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