Group Buy Slow Down

[Burnt Fingers]

I just cast a few hundred bullets from my Mihec 314640 HP mould I got from a group buy about six years ago. It was my first brass mould and is without a doubt as nice as any mould I’ve ever owned or used.

That’s the good news. The dark cloud around the silver lining was that from the time the GB hit its target (of 15 units back then) until delivery was nearly 18 months and the number of moulds ordered in the GB had risen to over five times the target. I blame this on the group buy participants rather than Mihec, since the honcho allowed brass vs aluminum blocks, two vs four cavities, two kinds of hollow points (one of which couldn’t be made!) and plain nose, and of course gas checked vs plain base. If there had been a bulk order of one design (with maybe 2 vs 4 cavs) there would have been one setup with one cherry needed and the whole project would have probably gone a lot faster. Group buys should be defined as mass production of a single design if we expect them to be economical and relatively fast.

Rant over, but thanks to Mihec for one of the nicest moulds I own... next time I’ll order from you from stock.

Froggie

You just hit the nail on the head. The more options the more people it takes to get the buy going. Design ONE style. See if people sign up I'm in one right now that offers 2/4 cavity HP, 4/6 cavity solids.

People are dropping out due to the amount of time it's taking. Pick hollow point or solid instead of both. IMHO that would make it go quicker.

[Shuz]

FWIW I received a quick reply from Miha about the problem I have getting Gator checks to fit on my 312-440 's. He sent me the specifications on the Hornady checks and they should work.

[Shuz]

If you click on the red MiHec name in any of his posts it will bring up a menu to allow you to Private Message him direct.

Thanks, I didn't know that!

[Muddydogs]

My issue with group buys is the wait as well. I may be casting or working on a caliber right now but who knows what I will be doing in a few months to a year so the group buys just don't make sense when there are a number of good molds on the market for purchase at any time.

[dragon813gt]

I gotta say it does sound unusual for a business to tool up and schedule for a custom order and then GIVE A DISCOUNT.

Group buy molds should cost MORE.

It’s called a volume discount. And the makers are using the initial run to fund the purchase of the cherries which they can keep making money off of in the future. They can also judge interest by how many and how fast the sign up is.

Look at prices for preorders for non custom products. There’s always a discount. Expect in the case of the preorders they take your money and you’re left w/ nothing until the product is shipped. W/ the group buys no money leaves your hand until the product is ready to ship. That’s a lot better seeing as his preorders get pushed back quite often.

[nikonuser]

It’s called a volume discount. And the makers are using the initial run to fund the purchase of the cherries which they can keep making money off of in the future. They can also judge interest by how many and how fast the sign up is.

Look at prices for preorders for non custom products. There’s always a discount. Expect in the case of the preorders they take your money and you’re left w/ nothing until the product is shipped. W/ the group buys no money leaves your hand until the product is ready to ship. That’s a lot better seeing as his preorders get pushed back quite often.

however, if its something you WANT to have, the fact that its automatically put on the back burner tells anyone that they don't count for squat with that company. If you WANT to get something on market, and cant even make sure you do it you just kill yourself.

Its the secret that all the people doing kick start campaigns for adjustable razors and reproduction razors cant comprehend. Promise something, take money, and NOT delivering means you wont be around or get customers

[crackers]

I’ll never get the group buy thing. The cherry idea has long given way to the lathe boring program, with it’s forever repeatability. Why waste a year going without something you want just to save ten dollars? And then find out it won’t even work for you?

[Gamsek]

however, if its something you WANT to have, the fact that its automatically put on the back burner tells anyone that they don't count for squat with that company. If you WANT to get something on market, and cant even make sure you do it you just kill yourself.

Its the secret that all the people doing kick start campaigns for adjustable razors and reproduction razors cant comprehend. Promise something, take money, and NOT delivering means you wont be around or get customers

Many times it’s members (turned into honchos) with their own designs (and not mould makes) who wants to see their design to be made so if there is enough people expressing their interest (you don’t pay until it’s made, no money taken in advance) then it’s viable for maker to invest in new cherry, material, pay someone for pins, engravings (outsourcing). Even with an existing cheery, there must be certain number of moulds made to make a profit and not debt.

So if this is a business model that keeps those small but probably THE BEST companies alive-let it be that way. No money is taken before and maker is not even sure someone on the list will actually take it, so there must be a certain number of participants so he does not actually loose his profit and stay in business. And that what we want, we want all those premium mould makers to stay in business.


GB are for semi-custom moulds.
If you don’t like them, don’t participate or go to another place. Just because “that other place” many times don’t offer what we want, we put our name on the list and wait for specific mould. In my case it was worth every time. I compare this to order a custom car. No patience? Sorry, wrong place.

I talked with Miha from MP molds many times and he is a hard working very busy man. When he is answering emails, he is not cutting the moulds. He many times relies on hochos to coordinate what someone else designed, not MP. Sometimes honcho made some promise (assumption) that was not discussed with him before and that made people impatient.

Yes communication must improve, but still it’s impossible to predict when will GB finish. If you knew how much money and time MP spent on buying cutters/cherry for a difficult totally new design for 300BLK mould you would understand why GB took 2 years from idea to 2 perfect moulds in my hands. It was worth. I will continue to wait and hope more of them are mine. It’s obvious you don’t understand how GB work. Most of us are happy. Because we get products like this. Some call it work of art. I even agree.


And now many moulds like this (that WE waited for) are available for YOU in his web shop. Available at the touch of your smart phone or computer and delivered anywhere in the world in 5days.
So thank us too for our patience, we helped it happen too.

Thank you mould makers, honchos and us buyers that keep GB’s alive.

[dragon813gt]

I compare this to order a custom car. No patience? Sorry, wrong place.

This is exactly it. I can only assume people here have not participated in group buys/preorders for car parts. Nothing like having thousands of dollars out of pocket and no product. Lost count of how many times I’ve heard “held up in customs”. But I was willing to spend my money in advance of product delivery to get said product in the end.

This “complaint” about group buys is perpetual. Do the buys mention a delivery date in the initial post? If not then there is nothing to complain about when it takes a long time. I understand “wanting it now”. But I’ve been part of many group buys that took a long time. The Mihec 300 BLK design literally took years and was canceled at least once. But I received the mold in the end and it was worth it.

Simply put, if you want it now don’t sign up for group buys.

[McFred]

I compare this to order a custom car. No patience? Sorry, wrong place.

I have done this. $25000 deposit with delivery scheduled for 6 months. Supply chain issues pushed it to 9 months. If I can get a custom car in 9 months, a lump of aluminum/brass/iron shouldn't be too hard once the minimum number of GB people have committed.

[megasupermagnum]

Really? You guys are going to compare a car to a bullet mold. It's a metal block with some holes bored in it. You can send Tom at Accurate molds any design you can think of, within reason, and many times it will be on your door step that week. Now I'm not certain that Tom is human, and I certainly don't always expect such results. Still MP has to find a way to trim the YEARS waiting down to MONTHS at the very least. There is nothing else to say. He currently backed himself up years in advance for work. As people get fed up with the wait, the times are only going to increase.

[nikonuser]

Really? You guys are going to compare a car to a bullet mold. It's a metal block with some holes bored in it. You can send Tom at Accurate molds any design you can think of, within reason, and many times it will be on your door step that week. Now I'm not certain that Tom is human, and I certainly don't always expect such results. Still MP has to find a way to trim the YEARS waiting down to MONTHS at the very least. There is nothing else to say. He currently backed himself up years in advance for work. As people get fed up with the wait, the times are only going to increase.

You finally put something into concise words that the majority will understand. When others can do a custom mold in under a month,, then ALL companies shouldn't need to take YEARS to do the same thing. Its also why LEE with their custom mold option is still a contender DESPITE the way the internet forums feel about lee products

[dragon813gt]

Like I said, perpetual complaint. If you don’t want to wait go to Tom. He doesn’t offer hollow point molds. If you don’t want to wait for a hollow point mold go to Al. But he doesn’t offer Cramer style HP molds. W/ no stated delivery time up front and no money exchanging hands there is nothing to complain about. Do I wish they completed faster, yes. But it is what it is.

[Gunslinger1911]

I'm gonna have to defend MiHec.
Do I want it now ? Accurate or NOE. Not thrilled with the "tilting" HP pins - but I want it now !
I have even bought a mould, gotten it in a week, sent it to Eric for the HP, got it back in 2 weeks, happy camper !
I'm willing to wait for the ART of MiHec moulds most of the time (have a dozen) I prefer brass over alum or steel; yes, bailed a few times when my interest changed.
I'm saving up for a "cool looking" MiHec mould - gonna put it on the shelf and just admire it - NEVER cast with it.
Everyone has their priorities, MiHec has his business plan (must be working, still in business).
My son in law is a master machinist, 20 yrs on the job - maybe I just understand better from his horror stories. lol His shop has been known to take a 500 lb block of high end steel and produce a 75 lb product. (yea, 65 hours on various mills - not all CNC either)
I have a vid somewhere of a 6 foot high, 4 foot diam "pipe" (actually a casting for a hydraulic ram) on a vert lathe. Impressive !

[John Wayne]

I have to admit I did break a cherry once, but I was a lot younger then. I really like those brass molds though!!!!!

[JeffG]

We are still up and running. Running normally.
Problem why thinks are slow...... Look at the group buys....they are no more group buys - they are more wish lists.

Group buy means 25 SAME molds. Lately In one group buy I came out with 16 different setups. That's why thinks slow down.

Think this as McDonalds and fancy superduper restaurant.... In McDonalds they have 5 menus ready to go. Pay and go.
In fancy restaurant you wait for an hour, because you want your stake medium rare, not so spicy, done on olive oil.......you get the point?


Trying my best here.

Thank you sir. I just recently ordered a 8 cavity 358-148-WC mold from you which arrived about a week ago. DHL delivered a couple houses down by mistake but the neighbor nicely brought to me. Very nice mold. Did 3 heat/cool runs on it then cast about 9 lbs of WC’s. It cast well. I need a couple more sessions to really get in a groove with it but very pleased.

Blessings and Happy Easter.

[MT Gianni]

Group buys are an excellent way for a custom mold maker to start and establish a business. With Accurate's design as you go program, for 30 and up calibers, they are filling a smaller niche. It is evident that they are a pain to an established business. One doesn't walk into a clothing store and ask them to make a specialty item that he and 25 friends who each need alterations will buy. If your needs truly aren't met by the MiHecs, NOEs and Accurates of the world, let alone Lyman, Saeco, RCBS and Lee there may be a need for a small custom shop. From being in Balistols failure to supply a decent 7mm Thor then resupplying one it isn't an easy thing to do.

[RugerFan]

For many of the reasons already stated, I’ve moved on from GBs a long time ago. MP usually doesn’t have what I’m looking for in stock (love his molds though), so I comb though NOEs expansive catalog. If he doesn’t have what I need on hand, I’ll design it on Mountain Molds or Accurate’s web site.

All of the above make excellent molds. I’m just getting old and impatient and want the ball rolling in an expedient and predictable manner.


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