ADvertise hereLee PrecisionTitan ReloadingInline Fabrication
RotoMetals2RepackboxWidenersMidSouth Shooters Supply

Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: same load for a different pistol

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    627

    same load for a different pistol

    i have a 45 CAL.1917 COLT revolver in 45 AUTO RIM, and can be used with MOON CLIPS for 45 ACP, question is can I use load data for 45 ACP in it? because i want to shoot AUTO RIM in it. thank's.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Outside Rolla, Missouri
    Posts
    1,186
    As I understand the history of the Auto-Rim, yes. The only difference is the rim and was done to eliminate the need for the full or half moon clips.

    Having said that, I encourage you to wait for confirmation from those more knowledgeable than me.
    "In general, the art of government is to take as much money as possible from one class of citizens and give it to another class of citizens" Voltaire'

    The common virtue of capitalism is the sharing of equal opportunity. The common vice of socialism is the equal sharing of misery

    NRA Benefactor 2008

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Western North Dakota
    Posts
    3,154
    As long as the bullet and powder charge are the same, yes the Auto Rimmed and the std. ACP case can be loaded the same.
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    SE Ohio
    Posts
    1,735
    I have two 25-2 S&Ws and a Colt NS in 45acp. I dearly hate moons and load 45AR for the three of them. Use 45acp dies and data. Shell holder is the only difference. Load nothing but cast. I’m not into anything I need to speed load so I say shoot the moon to moon clips.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    627

    same load for a different pistol

    Quote Originally Posted by Drm50 View Post
    I have two 25-2 S&Ws and a Colt NS in 45acp. I dearly hate moons and load 45AR for the three of them. Use 45acp dies and data. Shell holder is the only difference. Load nothing but cast. Iím not into anything I need to speed load so I say shoot the moon to moon clips.
    hey guys thanks for the response to my querrie. the help is always at hand all you have to do is ask. thanks too all of you who answered with a reply.there are a great bunch of people out there!!

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    rintinglen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Orange, VA NOW
    Posts
    4,686
    Some of the older manuals list loads for both Rounds together, but modern manuals--at least Lyman and Speer--list them separately, in order to give more accurate ballistic info. (A 5.5" revolver and a 5 inch semi-auto will not produce identical velocities.)












    0
    _________________________________________________It's not that I can't spell: it is that I can't type.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Thumbcocker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    East Central Illinois
    Posts
    2,889
    If you want to shoot swc loads in ar brass you might want to check out an RCBS roll crimp die.
    You'll go far providin' you ain't burnt alive or scalped."

    Will Geer as Bear Claw in "Jeramiah Johnson"

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    627
    Thumbcocker, roger that. thanks for the input. will do. thanks again. toot.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    TNsailorman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast Tennessee Hills
    Posts
    1,589
    I use the same die and setting to load for 1911 and revolver(22-4 S&W). The only change I make is in the shell holders and crimping dies. I seat on one die(with the same bullet seating depth on both ACP & AR) and crimp with different dies. I use a Redding taper crimp die for 1911 and a Redding Profile crimp die for AR. Works for me. james

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Texas by God's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    9,598
    The only thing I’ll add is that Elmer Kieth recommended hard cast bullets for the shallow rifling in the 1917 revolvers. So I used water quenched wheel weights in the one Colt and two S&Ws that I had. I once had reply letters from him and P.O. Ackley ( on different subjects) when they both worked for G&A.

  11. #11
    As stated above, 45 ACP data can be used in 45 AR. Some reloading manuals list separate 45 AR data, but the difference is negligible. The ACP data is usually just a tad hotter to ensure function in semi-autos. Your 1917 can handle it.

    Check your throats which could be surprisingly large. My S&W 25 has .455 throats, so I used boolits sized to .454. Accuracy is important to me since I shoot bullseye competition with it.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    627
    TNsailorman,Texas by GOD and oldsalt444, thanks for the input. it makes sense,. will save in my favorites.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    over the hill, out in the woods and far away
    Posts
    8,021
    In heat treated post-1917 date of manufacture Colt New Service revolvers having purpose-built .45 ACP cylinders there are no issues using standard .45 ACP data in Auto Rim cases.

    However, be aware that some early M1917s were assembled using leftover frames and cylinders from the 1914 British .455 order. In these guns they simply faced off the rear of the cylinder to provide clip clearance and used a .45 ACP sideplate, to correctly position the shortened cylinder. (The cylinder lug, called the "frame lug" on an S&W, is machined integral with the sideplate on a Colt). These early guns can be readily identified by not having a stop-surface in the chambers. Loose .45 ACP ammunition inserted without the clip falls in flush with the rear face of the cylinder, rather than "standing proud" with suffient protrusion to be struck by the firing pin.

    Contrary to popular folklore published by Keith and repeated many times since by others, the chambers on these early guns are NOT bored "straight through." I have one, the cylinder of which is pictured. It has a normal angled transition from a .480" diameter at the case mouth to the .456" diameter cylinder throats, and differs from the cylinder on my 1914 British contract .455 Eley New Service only in the length of the cylinder where the rear face was shaved to provide clip clearance, and different location of the lug on the sideplate. These revolvers work fine with Auto Rim brass or clipped .45 ACP ammunition, but for safety you want to hold pressures below 14,000 psi in the non-heat-treated cylinders. There a few recorded instances of early M1917s blowing up during proof with .45 ACP proof loads, but guns which passed proof were deemed safe with ordinary M1911 Ball ammunition. In mine I prefer .455 Eley equivalent loads with the Accurate 45-264D bullet and 4 grains of Bullseye for 720 fps, which is accurate despire the shallow rifling.

    Later US M1917s assembled after the residual British frames and parts were used up have purpose-built .45 ACP cylinders having the familiar square stop surface so that loose .45 ACP rounds can fired without the clips. These heat treated are safe with any normal .45 ACP loads, both standard and +P.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	45ACPBallWithoutClipFallsInFlush.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	51.9 KB 
ID:	259270Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ChamberConeWithoutStopSurface.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	38.1 KB 
ID:	259271Click image for larger version. 

Name:	M1917SquarewShoulder45ACPChamber.jpg 
Views:	5 
Size:	38.8 KB 
ID:	259272
    Last edited by Outpost75; 03-28-2020 at 06:09 PM.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master

    Winger Ed.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Just outside Gun Barrel City, Texas
    Posts
    2,348
    I'd always heard they were the same as far as loading.

    The moon clips came along since the world was going over to .45ACP and moving away from the .45 revolver.
    It'd let you or the military use the readily available ACPs and the govt. didn't have to stock the auto rim ammo any more,
    but they could keep feeding the revolvers they still had.
    It wasn't playing the blame game, finding fault, and complaining about every little thing that made America great.
    It was God, guns, and guts.


    Never pick a fight with old people.
    If they don't think they can win it: They'll just kill you.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Finger Lakes Region of NY
    Posts
    889
    Quote Originally Posted by Winger Ed. View Post
    The moon clips came along since the world was going over to .45ACP and moving away from the .45 revolver.
    It'd let you or the military use the readily available ACPs and the govt. didn't have to stock the auto rim ammo any more,
    but they could keep feeding the revolvers they still had.
    Actually, the Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers were designed to use .45 ACP ammo with moon clips from the get go and the government never stocked auto rim ammo, since the auto rim was developed commercially well after the war was over.

    Don
    NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    627
    Quote Originally Posted by TNsailorman View Post
    I use the same die and setting to load for 1911 and revolver(22-4 S&W). The only change I make is in the shell holders and crimping dies. I seat on one die(with the same bullet seating depth on both ACP & AR) and crimp with different dies. I use a Redding taper crimp die for 1911 and a Redding Profile crimp die for AR. Works for me. james
    I was under the beleaf that you do not crimp 45 ACP brass because they head space on the case mouth and not the rim, as 45 AUTO RIM does?

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    627
    Quote Originally Posted by USSR View Post
    Actually, the Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers were designed to use .45 ACP ammo with moon clips from the get go and the government never stocked auto rim ammo, since the auto rim was developed commercially well after the war was over.

    Don
    I concur with you. in CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD,it is says that the 45 CAL ACP 1917 revolvers were manufactured after WW1 in the 1920's, for the hunting community and target shooters.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    627
    I meant to say that the 45 CAL auto rim cartridge was developed after WW1, in the 1920,s for the hunting/ target shooters.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master 35 Whelen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    1,298
    When I started loading AR's for my 1917's, I measured the water capacity of a random ACP case and a Starline AR case. One held 25 gr. of water, the other 26. Not enough difference to matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    The only thing Iíll add is that Elmer Kieth recommended hard cast bullets for the shallow rifling in the 1917 revolvers. So I used water quenched wheel weights in the one Colt and two S&Ws that I had. I once had reply letters from him and P.O. Ackley ( on different subjects) when they both worked for G&A.
    That has been my experience exactly. Actually, "soft" bullets tend to lead much worse that quenched ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    <snip> These revolvers work fine with Auto Rim brass or clipped .45 ACP ammunition, but for safety you want to hold pressures below 14,000 psi in the non-heat-treated cylinders. There a few recorded instances of early M1917s blowing up during proof with .45 ACP proof loads, but guns which passed proof were deemed safe with ordinary M1911 Ball ammunition. <snip>
    This is interesting because 45 ACP ammunition from the beginning was loaded to 19,000 psi, although back in the day the units may have been CUP. So how would these cylinders have withstood the pressure of the 19,000 psi cartridge?

    35W
    "Only accurate rifles are interesting." -Col. Townsend Whelen.
    NRA Life Member
    Certified Texas Hunter Education Instructor

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check