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Thread: 8x58RD from 45-90

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy pcmacd's Avatar
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    8x58RD from 45-90

    I have read so much conflicting information here that I have started a new thread so as to not get lost.

    I've got a Gustaf 1867 Rolling Block in 8x58R Danish.

    The bore looks like a tar pit (carbon!), but we shall overcome.

    I've got the LEE mold that drops 0.329" gas check bullets with pure lead. Can't imagine what's going to happen with wheel weights and foundry type? I can handle that stuff. No worries.

    I slugged the muzzle of my barrel and it is 0.323" Easy enough.

    I'm looking at making cartridges from Starline 45-90 brass.

    Do the rims need to be turned?

    Is there a better cartridge to start with?

    What dies do I need?

    I have no trouble with buying the proper tooling to do this work.

    I just have a problem with buying the wrong stuff?

    The information on this site is truly a scramble, and not in any way coherent.

    I am hoping to start a new, more comprehensive conversation on this topic.

    What say y'all?

    mac

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    You might contact the member treekiller.
    I formed some cases for him. He can tell you if the rims needed any work but I don't think so.

    I did a bit of thinking and experimenting to form those cases from Starline .45-90.
    I first tried forming .45-90 cases with no annealing and they cracked.
    So I lightly annealed about 3/4" of the case mouth.
    Then I formed the brass with a variety of dies that I have including .40-65, .38-56 and .33 Win. These dies were only used to form the upper 1/3 to 1/2 of the cases.
    Once the upper half was formed the 8X58R FL die was used to form and FL size the cases.

    Based on my experimenting I would recommend buying or borrowing:
    1. A cheap used .40-65 die set and using the dies to form down the upper part of the case. I recommend a set of Redding, RCBS or Lyman dies. The Lee dies are closed top and do not allow the long .45-90 case to extend out as it is formed. To use the Lee 40-65 dies trim the cases first.
    2. A RCBS .350 Rem Mag FL die. This die will need to be cut off a little for best results but it is mostly use to form the neck way down. I did not have a .350 Rem Mag. die when forming the cases but I bought one and experimented with it later.
    3. FL size with the 8X58R dies. Size only enough to allow the block to close and the hammer to fall normally. Then trim to finished length. If case necks split when fired they will need a second annealing.

    To reduce the cost of developing your forming process start with old .45-70 brass if you have it (not Starline brass unless you anneal it). The shorter .45-70 case leaves the necks short but they form very easy with WW, Federal or RP brands.
    Once you get your process developed with old or junk .45-70 brass you can form the .45-90. Just be sure to lightly anneal the .45-90.
    Oh yeah - you need a big heavy duty press. I recommend that if you can find one of the older 1" dia. RCBS shell holders. The smaller 3/4" hardened shell holders may pull the top off during the sizing of these cases.

    I only formed 18 cases. Treekiller formed the rest. You might contact him to see what his process was.

    My annealing process
    I have an old 1960s propane torch with a 5/8" diameter head.
    I set the blue inner flame cone to be 1" long.
    I spin the case with a battery powered drill.
    The cases are spun in the flame with a 3/4" stand off distance for about 4 seconds. Experiment on .45-70 brass to avoid killing the .45-90 brass with your process development.
    Last edited by EDG; 03-25-2020 at 03:16 AM.
    EDG

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    pc, I wonder if so much conflicting information might be because so many have done it in different ways? The way I did it is quite a bit different from EDG's. I don't know that it matters as we both got the desired results. As EDG mentioned, I also have some brass made from 45-70 cases and they work but, the neck is quite short. I also have cases from 4590 brass....but I had a bunch as I've shot a 45-90 since the early 90's. Most of mine is/was Bertram but there's also some Starline. I slightly annealed all of it that I formed. I tried stepping down in sizes but I was losing probably 40% of the cases. Not acceptable. I don't know why and it certainly isn't my first rodeo. Anyway, what worked for me was sizing the brass in one fell swoop. 45-90 to 8 X 58RD in one stroke of the press. Years ago I had a similar situation and the only way I ended up with the correct cases flew in the face of all accepted methods. Do it all at once. I did remove the expander button/decapping pin then ran the cases back over the button later. If you try it the way I describe, don't dally once you start. Once the case starts into the sizing process don't stop.

    I had to turn the rims for my rifle and take just a tiny bit off the web area. I would do that after you get sized cases so you can use a 45-70 shell holder during the sizing process. I did not have to turn necks. As mentioned, I tried some intermediate size dies but that didn't work for me and, I still don't know why. It usually does. The only die I used was the CH-4D, 8 X 58RD sizing die.

    EDG mentions a heavy press and I agree. My Rock Chucker was up to the task. I assume using a good lube goes without saying.

    It's neat cartridge and while I am not ordinarily a rolling block fan, I do have a fondness for my Gustaf. Oh, my bore looked like a sewer pipe. It isn't bright and shiny even now but it did clean up nicely to reveal no pitting, just dark with pretty sharp looking lands.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    I form mine the way that Sharps4590 does except instead of using one stroke, I use several short strokes and check to make sure the forming necks are not building up too much lube. I also turn them about a 1/4 turn each stroke. I very seldom lose one.
    NRA Benefactor Member NRA Golden Eagle

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I recently bought some primed PPU 8x56R brass from Grafs, to try out in my swede. I know it's a bit short, but it chambers nicely without having to do any work to the rim, so I'm just going to anneal and fireform before I load. I think this brass is still on sale, it was reasonably priced, so it might be worth a try.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Good points pw. GG, be curious to see how the Hungarian brass works. I wonder, is the neck any shorter than if 8 X 58RD is made from 45-70?
    "In general, the art of government is to take as much money as possible from one class of citizens and give it to another class of citizens" Voltaire'

    The common virtue of capitalism is the sharing of equal opportunity. The common vice of socialism is the equal sharing of misery

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  7. #7
    Boolit Master Jedman's Avatar
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    For what I can find online you can make your 8 X 58 R brass from 8 X 56 R brass and will not need to turn the rim to fit, the brass will probably be about 2 mm short but that's better than using 45-70. Grafs has the 8 X 56 R PPU brass on sale now for $ 40 a 100, it's good brass.

    Jedman

  8. #8
    Boolit Man
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    I have been tinkering about with this calibre for the past year and a half. There are some good posts on trials and experiences on castboolits . Credit to Dutchman for one . dutchman.rebooty.com/rb.html
    I did fireform some 8 x 56 R brass to try to in the 8 x 58R. I am using a 8 mm Lebel die to neck size only as I haven't been able to find 8x58R dies yet. My results are mixed. I am using light Unique loads (10- 12 grains). I don't feel the brass will last many firings but it is workable. I have tried the buffalo arms made 8 x58r brass with .070 headspace and they seem to work well. I am neck sizing only, trying different lead bullets and not hot-rodding the loads whatsoever, 12 grains Unique.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    I use the 8x56R brass and neck size/seat using the Lebel dies. Also using unique. Haven't shot enough of it to know about case life but I doubt I'll burn thru the 100 cases I started with. Easy peasy.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    The most practical substitution I found was .45-70 cases. When using long heavy cast bullets seated to touch the lands the shorter case doesn't present any problems, far as I've experienced. I use RCBS factory dies. In the past I used formed cases from Buffalo Arms but aside from being very expensive they were so brittle they had a very short life. As well, Bertrum were so undersize in the body they would split first time fired. I can't recommend Bertrum. I would pick .45-70 cases over 8x56 Hungarian being better suited dimensionally overall.

    Don't assume the bores are oversized. My shooter slugs at .324" and shoots .323", .324" and .325" cast bullets extremely well. The 8x58RD likes heavy bullets. 200+ grains. Lyman 323471 or the NOE equivalent. Also the Lee 8mm Maximum (Midsouth Shooters Supply has it).


    Subject: Dimensions of 8x58R Danish

    Danish military issue case dated 1931 and
    loaded in Sweden with a soft point bullet.

    case OAL = 2.272"
    head diameter = .501"
    rim diameter = .574"
    rim thickness = .058"
    bullet diameter
    at case mouth = .323"

    Norma commercial 8x58RD
    headstamp = Norma 8mm m/89

    case OAL = 2.266"
    head diameter = .501"
    rim diameter = .576"
    rim thickness = .059"
    bullet diameter
    at case mouth = .323"
    (same bullet as above, 196gr RN SP)

    Below are Buffalo Arms cases... supremely brittle!



    Below are Bertrum cases that didn't survive fire-forming...



    More Bertrum cases that didn't survive fire-forming....












  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Wow Dutchman! I had some Bertram case failures but nothing like that. All mine did was split the necks. I agree with you however, I wouldn't recommend Bertram either except as a last resort. Bertram did work well in forming 9.3 X 75R Nimrod from 9.3 X 82R but, there wasn't a lot of forming went on

    My roller in 8 X 58RD shoots an Accurate 33-205 very well. You mention the heavier 8mm bullets but, oddly, mine will shoot a 174 gr. Lee, cast, gas check bullet better than almost anything. I was a bit surprised at the groups it turns in.

    I have been shooting the same Unique load as james23, 12 grs. of Unique. One load I'm going to work with more when spring really gets here is Reloder 7. Last year the few groups I fired with 19 grs. of R-7 and the Lee 174 gr. bullet were impressive....and a complete surprise. I have some 20 gr. charges loaded.

    Fun, historic and interesting cartridge and rifles.
    "In general, the art of government is to take as much money as possible from one class of citizens and give it to another class of citizens" Voltaire'

    The common virtue of capitalism is the sharing of equal opportunity. The common vice of socialism is the equal sharing of misery

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  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    It's a drizzely day of self quarantine, so I just fire formed a couple 8x56 cases using 8 grs. Bullseye and corn grits. They formed to the chamber nicely, even without annealing, although I've only done a few. Starting case length was 2.190, and after firing they shortened to 2.182. The OD of the neck was .364, so they will need to be neck sized, which I had hoped to avoid, as I don't have a proper die set.

    Does anyone have any load data for a heavy bullet load at around 1600-1750 fps, using a powder like 3031 or 4895, or should I be satisfied with 10gr Unique and a .323470 bullet?

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Isn't Dutchman THE clearinghouse for all things Husky rolling block? I know if I'm looking for something about Husky rollers, I look to see if he's addressed it somewhere.

    That said, I think I have some data in the shop for IMR-3031. Reloder 7 seems to work well also. Actually, from my fairly limited experience with the cartridge, it appears to be an amenable cartridge to load for.
    "In general, the art of government is to take as much money as possible from one class of citizens and give it to another class of citizens" Voltaire'

    The common virtue of capitalism is the sharing of equal opportunity. The common vice of socialism is the equal sharing of misery

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  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy pcmacd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharps4590 View Post
    pc, I wonder if so much conflicting information might be because so many have done it in different ways? The way I did it is quite a bit different from EDG's. I don't know that it matters as we both got the desired results. As EDG mentioned, I also have some brass made from 45-70 cases and they work but, the neck is quite short. I also have cases from 4590 brass....but I had a bunch as I've shot a 45-90 since the early 90's. Most of mine is/was Bertram but there's also some Starline. I slightly annealed all of it that I formed. I tried stepping down in sizes but I was losing probably 40% of the cases. Not acceptable. I don't know why and it certainly isn't my first rodeo. Anyway, what worked for me was sizing the brass in one fell swoop. 45-90 to 8 X 58RD in one stroke of the press. Years ago I had a similar situation and the only way I ended up with the correct cases flew in the face of all accepted methods. Do it all at once. I did remove the expander button/decapping pin then ran the cases back over the button later. If you try it the way I describe, don't dally once you start. Once the case starts into the sizing process don't stop.

    I had to turn the rims for my rifle and take just a tiny bit off the web area. I would do that after you get sized cases so you can use a 45-70 shell holder during the sizing process. I did not have to turn necks. As mentioned, I tried some intermediate size dies but that didn't work for me and, I still don't know why. It usually does. The only die I used was the CH-4D, 8 X 58RD sizing die.

    EDG mentions a heavy press and I agree. My Rock Chucker was up to the task. I assume using a good lube goes without saying.

    It's neat cartridge and while I am not ordinarily a rolling block fan, I do have a fondness for my Gustaf. Oh, my bore looked like a sewer pipe. It isn't bright and shiny even now but it did clean up nicely to reveal no pitting, just dark with pretty sharp looking lands.
    Thanks to all of you for your most helpful responses.

    Really.

    pcmacd

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy pcmacd's Avatar
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    Proposal for making 8x58RD from 45-90 Starline brass

    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    You might contact the member treekiller.
    I formed some cases for him. He can tell you if the rims needed any work but I don't think so.

    I did a bit of thinking and experimenting to form those cases from Starline .45-90.
    I first tried forming .45-90 cases with no annealing and they cracked.
    So I lightly annealed about 3/4" of the case mouth.
    Then I formed the brass with a variety of dies that I have including .40-65, .38-56 and .33 Win. These dies were only used to form the upper 1/3 to 1/2 of the cases.
    Once the upper half was formed the 8X58R FL die was used to form and FL size the cases.

    Based on my experimenting I would recommend buying or borrowing:
    1. A cheap used .40-65 die set and using the dies to form down the upper part of the case. I recommend a set of Redding, RCBS or Lyman dies. The Lee dies are closed top and do not allow the long .45-90 case to extend out as it is formed. To use the Lee 40-65 dies trim the cases first.
    2. A RCBS .350 Rem Mag FL die. This die will need to be cut off a little for best results but it is mostly use to form the neck way down. I did not have a .350 Rem Mag. die when forming the cases but I bought one and experimented with it later.
    3. FL size with the 8X58R dies. Size only enough to allow the block to close and the hammer to fall normally. Then trim to finished length. If case necks split when fired they will need a second annealing.

    To reduce the cost of developing your forming process start with old .45-70 brass if you have it (not Starline brass unless you anneal it). The shorter .45-70 case leaves the necks short but they form very easy with WW, Federal or RP brands.
    Once you get your process developed with old or junk .45-70 brass you can form the .45-90. Just be sure to lightly anneal the .45-90.
    Oh yeah - you need a big heavy duty press. I recommend that if you can find one of the older 1" dia. RCBS shell holders. The smaller 3/4" hardened shell holders may pull the top off during the sizing of these cases.

    I only formed 18 cases. Treekiller formed the rest. You might contact him to see what his process was.

    My annealing process
    I have an old 1960s propane torch with a 5/8" diameter head.
    I set the blue inner flame cone to be 1" long.
    I spin the case with a battery powered drill.
    The cases are spun in the flame with a 3/4" stand off distance for about 4 seconds. Experiment on .45-70 brass to avoid killing the .45-90 brass with your process development.
    Received my 45-90 Starline brass from Graf's.

    The rims need just a bit taken off the diameter to fit my 1871 Swede Rolling Block in 8x58RD. I chuck them up gently in my drill press, put a bastard file to the rim @~550 RPM, cut, measure and cut. Spin them in front of a motorized wire wheel to make it all nice.

    I was planning to do a direct conversion from 45-90 to 8x58RD in a single step in the CH4D die, after annealing.

    --->> Your guidance has given me pause, thank you very much, sir!

    I have ordered a LEE 40-65 trim die for cheap - get them whilst you can as they are a discontinued overrun?

    Lee #91384 [ http://fsreloading.com/ ]

    Mind y'all, this is a plan, and I shall update if required when done.

    After annealing down to about 1.7" from the head* I shall use the 40-65 trim die as a first step, the 338 lapua as the second, and the CH4D as the turd step.

    I NEVER use the sizing die's ball to re-size the neck. I did a study years ago on some 308 win brass comparing the subsequent runout of a quality Redding die with sizing button, to brass sized w/o button in the same die, neck opened with a Lyman "M" (?) series die. No comparison. I NEVER use the ball expander.

    I will anneal again before or/after trimming to length in my motorized RCBS unit [don't leave home w/o that!]*** and loading.

    Whatchathink?

    tanks

    mac

    *Get the LEE spud and shell holder for the 40-70 length trim setup.

    Get some Tempilaq 650F indicator. **

    [I've been using the same bottle for 25 years. When it dries out, put some acetone or lacquer thinner in it to bring it back to life. Store the bottle upside down to minimize evaporation {works for anything else, too!} Use a little heat from a heat gun to loosen the cap if it is difficult to remove; a strap wrench does not hurt!]

    Measure 1.7" from head to body; doesn't hurt to make a Sharpie ring around it there.

    Cross that line evenly above/below along the cart. length with a single stripe of the Tempilaq, about <=1/2" long.

    Prop the torch in a small vice or vee block pointing nominally up to the right or left. Light it.

    Put the case in the spud/holder into an electric drill, put the hot part of a propane torch flame cone on the circumferential line and spin it. As soon as that indicator turns from orange to brown, quench it in cold water. Remove from spud. Repeat.

    That is how one anneals a case.

    Method more or less directly from "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges" by Dr. Ken Howell.

    ** This is a great temperature to stop heating, because by the time you get the sucker into the cooling bath the heat will have migrated even further south.... It has worked so well for me over the years I would never even consider another method, although I do acknowledge that there are many more that are equally good.

    *** Mic MacPherson used to write for Precision Shooting and other publications, has published many a book, and likely still has all manner of internet presence. He just LOVES the RCBS motorized trimmer, so I bought one after being disenchanted with my Gracey trimmer, subsequently sold. I can trim a case about every ten seconds, depending on the length of cut, and in/out bevel by hand the last case whilst waiting for the one in the lathe. What's NOT TO LOVE about that?

    4/20/28 evening UPDATE: Tried the 3 step stuff and creamed cases. Did the one step process via sharp4590 outline, but I did anneal, and he likely did also. Please see my later posts here.

    ....
    Last edited by pcmacd; 04-28-2020 at 09:26 PM. Reason: revision

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy pcmacd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharps4590 View Post
    pc, I wonder if so much conflicting information might be because so many have done it in different ways? The way I did it is quite a bit different from EDG's. I don't know that it matters as we both got the desired results. As EDG mentioned, I also have some brass made from 45-70 cases and they work but, the neck is quite short. I also have cases from 4590 brass....but I had a bunch as I've shot a 45-90 since the early 90's. Most of mine is/was Bertram but there's also some Starline. I slightly annealed all of it that I formed. I tried stepping down in sizes but I was losing probably 40% of the cases. Not acceptable. I don't know why and it certainly isn't my first rodeo. Anyway, what worked for me was sizing the brass in one fell swoop. 45-90 to 8 X 58RD in one stroke of the press. Years ago I had a similar situation and the only way I ended up with the correct cases flew in the face of all accepted methods. Do it all at once. I did remove the expander button/decapping pin then ran the cases back over the button later. If you try it the way I describe, don't dally once you start. Once the case starts into the sizing process don't stop.

    I had to turn the rims for my rifle and take just a tiny bit off the web area. I would do that after you get sized cases so you can use a 45-70 shell holder during the sizing process. I did not have to turn necks. As mentioned, I tried some intermediate size dies but that didn't work for me and, I still don't know why. It usually does. The only die I used was the CH-4D, 8 X 58RD sizing die.

    EDG mentions a heavy press and I agree. My Rock Chucker was up to the task. I assume using a good lube goes without saying.

    It's neat cartridge and while I am not ordinarily a rolling block fan, I do have a fondness for my Gustaf. Oh, my bore looked like a sewer pipe. It isn't bright and shiny even now but it did clean up nicely to reveal no pitting, just dark with pretty sharp looking lands.
    Voila! Procedure as in sharp4590, quoted above. Whoda thunkit? Attachment 261205

    A tiny less lube on #3.

    #1 had too little Imperial on it, stuck in the *(%% die, broke the shellholder, all of that nonsense. I guess I'd rather have a few lube dents.

    I did anneal by putting some 650 Tempilaq about 1.7" up from the head, heating case mouth with propane torch hot cone until the Tempilaq went from orange to brown, then quench.

    Used the Forester Co-Ax press with their adapter to make it take a conventional shell holder.

    CH4D dies 8x58RD dies, spindle removed. I will use a Lyman "M" 8mm neck expanding die before loading.

    [
    did a study once on 308 win, redding dies with spindle expander, vs. same die, no expander, and necks opened with the Lyman "M"? No contest.

    I NEVER use the expanding ball.
    ]

    Oh, and? I went through TWO RCBS #14 shell holders for the first 25 cases I sized.

    Tore the tops off of those suckers!

    I used a LEE #8 shell holder (for 45-70, of course) and did the last 25 w/o out incident.

    People may frown on Lee, but dudes? Their stuff is of the HIGHEST QUALITY. Period.*

    I must say that I had to seriously HAUL DOWN!!! on the press to make it go from top to bottom in a single pass.

    And, since I have back problems, I stood UNDER the Forester press handle, and pushed up with my legs to bring it back to the top.

    There is a very fine balance betwixt to little and too much Imperial sizing lube for this application.

    * I have all manner of dies from every manufacturer you can possibly imagine. Some of the specialty Redding micrometer dies are in a class alone; other than that, Lee dies are right in there. A serious value.
    Last edited by pcmacd; 04-28-2020 at 09:28 PM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check