A Few Questions That Have Probably Been Asked 100 Times

[gpidaho]

Lots of workarounds out there to make factory shells put a heavy hit on the target board. I've had some success with cutting the center out of a star crimp, leaving the outer crimp over the wad (looks like a roll crimp) removing a few pieces of shot and pouring in hot wax . I'm just not quite rednek enough to try cut shells but I've seen them work. Gp

[ralph029]

A common practice is to simply replace a birdshot load with a slug of equal weight. Pressure test loads have shown that the slugs develop less pressure due to lower bore friction than shot loads.

I understand this. A solid slug will hold its shape and not "conform" to the inside of the barrel as much as a loose load of birdshot will. But what about buck shot? Is it safe to simply trade load weights? I imagine that due to the size of the pellets that the friction is somewhere between slugs and bird shot.

Having said that, that applies to "standard" slug designs and diameters. If you were to load up hard cast slugs that were say 0.010" over bore diameter things would likely be different.

If we are talking lead round balls only that are undersized (of the barrel) the one for one weight replacement should be fine, right?

Typical Foster style hollow base slugs fall into this category as do Lee Drive Key slugs which many people use in factory birdshot loads by dumping the shot then replacing with a Lee 7/8 oz. or 1 oz. slug in a 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. factory load.Randy Buchanan does this with his round ball and slug loads. He uses a 0.662" ball loaded to 1 oz. birdshot load data with great success. Another proponent of this is Petander from Finland who has done this in both 12 ga. and 20 ga. with great success. For him the factory birdshot loads are cheaper than reloading so he turns them into round ball loads.

This is good info but I won't be at this point for some time BUT it does bring up another question/comment. 1 1/8 oz is not nearly as accurate as 492.18 grains. I know that those are the same weight but in reloading, grains is the common measurement. Imperial weight is not a very accurate measurement. In reloading data, is the assumption that the reloader will convert oz.'s to grains? Is there a standard 7/8, 1, 1 1/8, 1 1/4, grain equivalent used and/or assumed? Try to throw 1 1/8 oz on a scale and then weight it out in grains and you'll be hard pressed to get the same grain weight twice. One half a grain is pretty easy to measure but .0011 oz.'s is pretty tricky with most common scales. .5 grains in powder can make a huge difference.

It doesn't have to be fancy to work! These are safe and sane loads that shoot well and don't beat you senseless with recoil as slug specific loads tend to do as they are usually loaded to max. pressures and velocities.

I like safe and sane! Someday I'll tell you a story about me not respecting published data and a blunderbuss. I was young and dumb at the time.

Longbow

[ralph029]

Soooo... After doing some more reading and math I'm thinking that, based on BPI's #00 Super Buck Lead (.330) at 130 pellets per pound I can use:
7 pellets for 7/8 oz load data
8 pellets for 1 oz load data
9 pellets for 1 1/8 oz load data
10 pellets for 1 1/4 oz load data

Or did I just over simplify this?

Using the Federal Hunting-Type Plastic Case with Paper Basewad
Lyman says 10 pellets #00, 33.0 grains of Blue Dot, Federal 209A primer, Federal 12S4 wad equals 1340 fps and 8,400 psi
Federal says 1 1/4 oz shot, 34.0 grains of Blue Dot, Federal 209A primer, Federal 12S4 wad equals 1330 fps and 9,600 psi

in all actuality 10 pellets is really 1.2 oz.'s (just shy of 1 1/4 oz.)

The weight in pellets falls within 5%
The weight of the powder charge falls within 3%

[megasupermagnum]

Soooo... After doing some more reading and math I'm thinking that, based on BPI's #00 Super Buck Lead (.330) at 130 pellets per pound I can use:
7 pellets for 7/8 oz load data
8 pellets for 1 oz load data
9 pellets for 1 1/8 oz load data
10 pellets for 1 1/4 oz load data

Or did I just over simplify this?

Using the Federal Hunting-Type Plastic Case with Paper Basewad
Lyman says 10 pellets #00, 33.0 grains of Blue Dot, Federal 209A primer, Federal 12S4 wad equals 1340 fps and 8,400 psi
Federal says 1 1/4 oz shot, 34.0 grains of Blue Dot, Federal 209A primer, Federal 12S4 wad equals 1330 fps and 9,600 psi

in all actuality 10 pellets is really 1.2 oz.'s (just shy of 1 1/4 oz.)

The weight in pellets falls within 5%
The weight of the powder charge falls within 3%

I did not go back and read the entire thread yet, but I'd like to add that 10 pellets of hard 000 buck weights about 1 1/2 ounces. I would think 10 of 00 buck would be closer to the 1 1/4 ounce you first stated. You can use buckshot in place of lead shot, the only problem being buckshot takes up more room, so you do not always get away with it.

[longbow]

What he said^

Not sure about bore friction with buckshot. Depending on how it stacks buckshot may "wedge" against the bore which smaller shot does not. However, the contact points are few and if in a shotcup the plastic petals likely yield to relieve at least some of that contact pressure/friction.

Not sure if anyone has done testing that way to determine if fewer large pellets wedging causes higher bore friction than "fluid" smaller shot all pushing outwards. I think smaller "fluid" shot would result in more bore friction but that is speculation on my part.

As msm says, a direct substitution of buckshot for birdshot will probably result in a light payload due to larger volume required.

Yes, for round balls that are bore diameter or under (in shotcup or bore diameter) equal payload is safe. I have loaded 0.735" RB's in my 12 ga. and shot them through a rifled gun with 0.727" groove diameter with no issues. There is not a lot of meat at the equator of a round ball so they swage to bore size pretty easy. A solid slug that diameter might result in too much lead to swage but bore diameter slugs are fine.

Soft Foster slugs do or at least can obturate to fill the bore. I have recovered Foster slugs shot into deep show and they swole up to fill the bore. I'll warn that a soft Foster style slug in a short hull may obturate to fill the chamber then be reluctant to enter the bore. Ask me how I know!

Thick skirted and/or hard slugs and round balls of bore diameter or less in a shotcup or all lead are fine to use as equal weight payload in my experience and everything I have read. This assumes a cylinder bore barrel.

Check out SuperBlazingSabots posts on slug/ball/shotcup fit. There is a wealth of information Ajay has posted in his thread. It can save you a lot of time tinkering with loads to get accuracy and performance.

Round balls are particularly easy to cast and load and if loaded properly can give quite good accuracy out to at least 50 yards and maybe more like 75 yards. Generally a RB dropped into a shotcup is the easiest way to go but... you should drop a 16 ga. or 20 ga. nitro card wad or two into the shotcup first. Also, a small scoop of Cream 'O Wheat between ball and card wads helps too. Without the nitro card wads the shotcup will try to wrap itself around the ball due to lack of support.

Good round ball sizes are 0.662" which is a bit undersize for many shotcups but okay in some and 0.678" which fits several readily available shotcups nicely. I have cloth patched 0.662" RB's into shotcups in hulls much like loading a muzzleloader and that works well as you can choose cloth thickness to suit bore fit. Lyman makes both those mould sizes and Mihec may have some 0.678" RB moulds in stock.

Many people use 0.690" RB's in shotcups but so far that's a ball I have had little luck with as most shotcups I've tried are are too thick and the couple that were thin enough had petals shear so accuracy was poor. I haven't pursued this ball size further since the others work well. Inexpensive Lee moulds is an advantage here though.

Yes, I use my powder scale in grains but don't get too caught up in 1/8 oz. or weighing the entire payload. Birdshot recipes simply call for a given shot payload of 7/8, 1, 1 1/8, 1 1/4 oz. so if my slug is close as in within 1/8 oz. I consider it good for most loading. If I am pushing pressure in a max. load then I am more picky but it isn't often that I am looking at squeezing the last FPS at the highest PSI!

Longbow

[ralph029]

I don't understand the difference between a shot cup and a plastic "wad". Is a shot cup what I'm seeing listed on sites that sell components as wads, i.e. a Federal 12S4?

[megasupermagnum]

I don't understand the difference between a shot cup and a plastic "wad". Is a shot cup what I'm seeing listed on sites that sell components as wads, i.e. a Federal 12S4?

Normally when we say shot cup, we are talking about the part of the wad that actually holds the shot. If you look at a 12S4, the bottom is the gas seal or powder cup, the middle corrugated section is the cushion or crush section. The top with petals is the shot cup. The whole unit comprises a wad or wadding.

Different wads like a steel shot wad normally don't have a crush section, and are nothing but a shot cup with a gas seal. Some like the BP12 don't even have that, and are purely a plastic shot cup, useless without added wadding.

[ralph029]

Normally when we say shot cup, we are talking about the part of the wad that actually holds the shot. If you look at a 12S4, the bottom is the gas seal or powder cup, the middle corrugated section is the cushion or crush section. The top with petals is the shot cup. The whole unit comprises a wad or wadding.

Different wads like a steel shot wad normally don't have a crush section, and are nothing but a shot cup with a gas seal. Some like the BP12 don't even have that, and are purely a plastic shot cup, useless without added wadding.

That's what I thought but figured better to ask. Thanks so much! I know you guys have probably answered most of these questions a number of times and I really appreciate you all taking the time to do it one more time

[ralph029]

Yes, for round balls that are bore diameter or under (in shotcup or bore diameter) equal payload is safe. I have loaded 0.735" RB's in my 12 ga. and shot them through a rifled gun with 0.727" groove diameter with no issues. There is not a lot of meat at the equator of a round ball so they swage to bore size pretty easy. A solid slug that diameter might result in too much lead to swage but bore diameter slugs are fine.

Soft Foster slugs do or at least can obturate to fill the bore. I have recovered Foster slugs shot into deep show and they swole up to fill the bore. I'll warn that a soft Foster style slug in a short hull may obturate to fill the chamber then be reluctant to enter the bore. Ask me how I know!

Just to be clear, when you say swage, you are refering to the round ball resizing itself during the actual firing and not as us metallic reloaders think of resizing as a process done to the projectile prior to loading? There really is no practical difference between swage and obtruate in this discussion, correct?

Check out SuperBlazingSabots posts on slug/ball/shotcup fit. There is a wealth of information Ajay has posted in his thread. It can save you a lot of time tinkering with loads to get accuracy and performance.

I did read through Ajay's post when I first began this and it made very little sense at that time. I have gone back and as I learn more basics (with all you guys help), it makes much more sense! The plan is to start with buckshot, get more familiar with the process and then move on to round balls (no intention of working with slugs at this point). I might move into trap shooting though. I know that's a whole different conversation

Round balls are particularly easy to cast and load and if loaded properly can give quite good accuracy out to at least 50 yards and maybe more like 75 yards. Generally a RB dropped into a shotcup is the easiest way to go but... you should drop a 16 ga. or 20 ga. nitro card wad or two into the shotcup first. Also, a small scoop of Cream 'O Wheat between ball and card wads helps too. Without the nitro card wads the shotcup will try to wrap itself around the ball due to lack of support.

I have felt wads as the round ball recipe I was looking at did not call for a card. I was going to add the felt if I needed to make up some space or if the accuracy was horrible. I assume that felt would conform more than a card. Should I use both, skip the felt and use a card and CoW, or just play around to see what works best?

Good round ball sizes are 0.662" which is a bit undersize for many shotcups but okay in some and 0.678" which fits several readily available shotcups nicely. I have cloth patched 0.662" RB's into shotcups in hulls much like loading a muzzleloader and that works well as you can choose cloth thickness to suit bore fit. Lyman makes both those mold sizes and Mihec may have some 0.678" RB moulds in stock.

Many people use 0.690" RB's in shotcups but so far that's a ball I have had little luck with as most shotcups I've tried are are too thick and the couple that were thin enough had petals shear so accuracy was poor. I haven't pursued this ball size further since the others work well. Inexpensive Lee moulds is an advantage here though.

I have both .662 and .678 round balls that I will work with to start. I'm very sure that once this starts I'll own more Lyman molds. I've never used Mihec molds before. Until I get a little further along in this, I'll just order from TofW.

Thanks again longbow!

[megasupermagnum]

Skip the felt when working with slugs. I have never had them do anything positive. Use hard card wads, COW (or other buffer), or both. You do not want the wad to conform to the ball.

[ralph029]

Skip the felt when working with slugs. I have never had them do anything positive. Use hard card wads, COW (or other buffer), or both. You do not want the wad to conform to the ball.

Hi msm. I'm a little confused by your response. I'm not working with slugs, only buckshot (which I know needs no felt) and round balls. I was under the impression from something I read earlier that you want a felt wad to somewhat conform to an undersized round ball (.662).

[megasupermagnum]

For buckshot, felt can work fine. For a single ball or slug, no. Something like a .662" diameter ball is likely going to either need a thick wad, like a steel shot wad, or some kind of patch inside the wad.

[longbow]

Yes, I mean the ball swaging in the bore when fired. Before loading any of those 0.735" RB's I dropped on in my chamber and tapped it through the bore to see how much force it took to swage to bore diameter since it is about 0.006" oversize. The answer was not a lot of force required so I didn't worry about it.

As for the felt, I generally use one or two 1/8" nitro card wads under a round ball so support the base of the shotcups and yes plastic wad/shotcup same thing with gas seal, cushion leg/shotcup all one piece (usually). However, Randy Buchanan uses just felt under his 0.662" RB's with good success. He is using trap load data so generally not heavy slug loads. No reason not to try just felt if you have it. Look at fired wads for signs of distortion or failure. If accuracy is good and wads look okay you should be fine. If accuracy is poor or wads are kinda distorted then try the nitro card wads. I guess if wads look like c**p but accuracy is good then that works but I like to see the recovered wads in good shape.

Longbow

[ralph029]

Yes, I mean the ball swaging in the bore when fired. Before loading any of those 0.735" RB's I dropped on in my chamber and tapped it through the bore to see how much force it took to swage to bore diameter since it is about 0.006" oversize. The answer was not a lot of force required so I didn't worry about it.

As for the felt, I generally use one or two 1/8" nitro card wads under a round ball so support the base of the shotcups and yes plastic wad/shotcup same thing with gas seal, cushion leg/shotcup all one piece (usually). However, Randy Buchanan uses just felt under his 0.662" RB's with good success. He is using trap load data so generally not heavy slug loads. No reason not to try just felt if you have it. Look at fired wads for signs of distortion or failure. If accuracy is good and wads look okay you should be fine. If accuracy is poor or wads are kinda distorted then try the nitro card wads. I guess if wads look like c**p but accuracy is good then that works but I like to see the recovered wads in good shape.

Longbow

Perfect. Thank you sir!

[centershot]

Ralph,
In general, it is common practice to us a 16 or 20 ga. nitro card in a 12 ga. shotcup to prevent the wad from distorting and wrapping itself around the ball, 10K lbs. of pressure can do some quirky things. BUT, we all know that every gun is a story unto itself so the "nitro card thing" is not an absolute. I wish the loads that worked so well in My M500 would work in my 870 but no such luck! A lot of guys use COW as a filler/cushion, I use cornmeal. Go figure! Randy Buchanan uses a felt wad in his RB loads and gets great results; there's nothing wrong with careful experimentation. Test, modify, test again.

[ralph029]

Ralph,
In general, it is common practice to us a 16 or 20 ga. niro card in a 12 ga. shotcup to prevent the wad from distorting and wrapping itself around the ball, 10K lbs. of pressure can do some quirky things. BUT, we all know that every gun is a story unto itself so the "nitro card thing" is not an absolute. I wish the loads that worked so well in My M500 would work in my 870 but no such luck! A lot of guys use COW as a filler/cushion, I use cornmeal. Go figure! Randy Buchanan uses a felt wad in his RB loads and gets great results; there's nothing wrong with careful experimentation. Test, modify, test again.

Thanks centershot. I have felt and cornmeal at the house so I will begin with those for now. I'll order some nitro cards as well and try those. And to think, when this whole thing started, I said to myself, "hell, I've been reloading for years, how hard can this be?". Aarruugghh! I now have my eye on an Orion 1 and thinking about skeet. Why do I hate myself so much!?!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes the 1/4" thick felt wad in the shot cup with the ball sitting on top works just fine for low recoil shooting. Pretty sure nothing would like being hit by one, I know the steel targets I shoot with them scream and howl when hit, so they must be lethal.

Using the Claybuster AA clones the wad measures .725 around the ball when at rest. As the Felt is compressed during firing it shoves the ball deeper into the felt and the tapered wad petals the diameter around the ball grows up to @.730 dia. That is why this load works as well as it does. Low Pressure, good fit, relatively low velocity (1100 fps,) hardly any significant or objectionable recoil. In other words you should be able to shoot these all day long just like you would with your trap gun.

Randy

[centershot]

Thanks centershot. I have felt and cornmeal at the house so I will begin with those for now. I'll order some nitro cards as well and try those. And to think, when this whole thing started, I said to myself, "hell, I've been reloading for years, how hard can this be?". Aarruugghh! I now have my eye on an Orion 1 and thinking about skeet. Why do I hate myself so much!?!

LOL! When I began my quest I wanted to load my own slugs, something at least as accurate as factory Foster slugs from my smoothbore so 4" @ 50 yards. "How hard could this be?" I asks myself.........And that was FOUR YEARS AGO! Yeah, I got it worked out but at times, I swear man, there had to be voodoo involved!

[longbow]

Naaaahhhh... I don't believe in voodoo! Black magic on the other hand I have experienced first hand in slug reloading!!!

[centershot]

Naaaahhhh... I don't believe in voodoo! Black magic on the other hand I have experienced first hand in slug reloading!!!

Skokum!