A Few Questions That Have Probably Been Asked 100 Times

[ralph029]

Thanks Randy. The Lyman recipe calls for a 20 ga .125 Butler card. Should I add another .125 felt wad or just skip the Butler card and go with .250 felt (or just use CoW as longbow suggests)?

[gpidaho]

ralph029 As was posted above, another one hooked! I've found my rifles and handguns quite neglected since I started reading the shotgun posts here. Gp

[W.R.Buchanan]

Just use the 1/4" felt wad in the base of the shot cup. It cups around the ball very well and centers the ball in the wad during firing which in turn centers the ball in the bore as it travels .

Randy

[ralph029]

Just use the 1/4" felt wad in the base of the shot cup. It cups around the ball very well and centers the ball in the wad during firing which in turn centers the ball in the bore as it travels .

Randy

Thanks Randy.

[pashiner]

Ralph, to answer a previous question, using ajay's push-through method for checking fit also takes into account bore friction, and not just physical dimensions. Keep in mind lead hardness and slug design can throw it all out the window if the slug obturates on ignition. That's why I cast mine from a harder alloy. It allows one less variable in the mix.

[ralph029]

Ralph, to answer a previous question, using ajay's push-through method for checking fit also takes into account bore friction, and not just physical dimensions. Keep in mind lead hardness and slug design can throw it all out the window if the slug obturates on ignition. That's why I cast mine from a harder alloy. It allows one less variable in the mix.

Thanks pashiner. I appreciate the insight.

[longbow]

I doubt solid slugs or round balls obturate at all even if cast from soft lead... at lease none I have recovered show any signs of obturation but hollow base slugs cast from even fairly hard alloy do obturate!

I even had some thick skirted slugs at 0.110" skirt swell up at ignition. Depending on slug design and whether bore size or wad slug some collapse at the skirt (Lyman sabot slugs do this as do most soft Foster styles) and some went bell shaped with the lower edge of the skirt expanded/flared "bell" like. Many of these had been shot when there was about 4' of snow on the ground and were recovered in spring. I couldn't figure out why those thick skirted slugs shot so poorly but after recovering them I could see why! Oven heat treating solved that problem and they became a good shooting slug.

One of my more recent designs was also flaring/belling at the bottom of the skirt and due to sharp edge on the base they were shearing petals off shotcups! So yes pashiner has a good point.

Longbow

[ralph029]

Gentlemen, I"m not trying to push my luck here but I have another question concerning hulls. I promise I did a search for "federal plastic hulls" and read through the 8 pages of posts (aarruugghh). This is not a question about a specific load as we already addressed those questions. What I have found is if you look at different manufactures websites and their specific recipes to be used with their specific components, I am finding that either I have a very exotic hull (I really really doubt it) or they are not always called the same thing. I have 200 rds of Federal 2.75 maroon plastic shotshells (#0621275 B). I would have thought that this would be pretty easy to reference on most recipe websites. Lyman reloading data was easy to use as they call this a Federal Plastic with Paper Basewad and reference it in their data. I am trying to be meticulous in following recipes here in the beginning of my learning curve. I just thought I would stick with one hull to start and play around and research to learn how this all works together (think metallic cartridge in that there is only one place to start and then you vary the components). I can't seem to find vendors who use the same name for these shotshells. Is there a trick to this? For example, if you look at Alliant's website I have two choices for hulls, Federal Gold Medal Plastic Target Shells (which I know is not the one I have) or Federal Paper Target Shells (again I know that I do not have this either). If I go to Hodgdon's site I have 6 choices but none of those appear to be these shells. So, did I just buy incredibly exotic hulls or am I just not understanding proper identification methods?
I am asking to learn. I bought these particular hulls because they are referenced by Lyman for both 00 buck and round ball loads with the ballistics that I'm looking for to start my learning curve.

[gpidaho]

Ralph: Are any of these hulls marked Top Gun ? That's a very common Federal target Hull. Some have plastic base wads, some paper this hull is sometimes marked with just the Federal logo and sold as light field loads. If these sound like the hulls you have Top Gun load data is available on federals site or you can PM me for more information. Gp

[longbow]

Well, I'd have to look up some data. I think what I have refers to "Federal Plastic with Paper Basewad" as your Lyman info does.

These are not reportedly the best hulls. Having said that, I have a bunch of once fired Federal plastic hulls with paper basewad myself! Some people have commented on the fact that the paper basewad sometimes fails and goes out the barrel. So far I have not seen that happen.

I generally use straight walled hull load data with these if there is not data specific to the hulls. Sometimes the wad column height will have to be adjusted to allow for crimping.

You might try the Federal website and I am guessing they will still send you a free loading manual for Federal hulls. I got one and these hulls are listed. Slug data may be sparse but there should be buckshot data readily available. Round ball loads you will have to play with a bit using an equal payload weight of slug or shot and adjust the RB in a shotcup or on a wad column for crimp height.

I was using Fiocchi hulls which I liked but they have been reloaded too many times now so have to be replaced. The Federals were free so I am using them. I plan on going to Cheddite hulls shortly as they are readily available locally.

You don't have anything exotic but shotshell reloading can be confusing and frustrating trying to get all the correct components listed in reloading data. I use multiple sources which makes things a bit easier but still have to make substitutions occasionally.

Longbow

[ralph029]

Ralph: Are any of these hulls marked Top Gun ? That's a very common Federal target Hull. Some have plastic base wads, some paper this hull is sometimes marked with just the Federal logo and sold as light field loads. If these sound like the hulls you have Top Gun load data is available on federals site or you can PM me for more information. Gp

Gp, there are no markings on the hulls at all other than 12 GA & Made in the USA on the base. If it helps, I bought them from Ballistic Products https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Fe...info/0621275B/

[ralph029]

Well, I'd have to look up some data. I think what I have refers to "Federal Plastic with Paper Basewad" as your Lyman info does.

These are not reportedly the best hulls. Having said that, I have a bunch of once fired Federal plastic hulls with paper basewad myself! Some people have commented on the fact that the paper basewad sometimes fails and goes out the barrel. So far I have not seen that happen.

I generally use straight walled hull load data with these if there is not data specific to the hulls. Sometimes the wad column height will have to be adjusted to allow for crimping.

You might try the Federal website and I am guessing they will still send you a free loading manual for Federal hulls. I got one and these hulls are listed. Slug data may be sparse but there should be buckshot data readily available. Round ball loads you will have to play with a bit using an equal payload weight of slug or shot and adjust the RB in a shotcup or on a wad column for crimp height.

I was using Fiocchi hulls which I liked but they have been reloaded too many times now so have to be replaced. The Federals were free so I am using them. I plan on going to Cheddite hulls shortly as they are readily available locally.

You don't have anything exotic but shotshell reloading can be confusing and frustrating trying to get all the correct components listed in reloading data. I use multiple sources which makes things a bit easier but still have to make substitutions occasionally.

Longbow

Hi longbow. I really wasn't expecting much from these hulls, one because they were cheap and two, because I'm just learnin' and I'm sure I'll make mistakes on components along the way as I learn Hell, I paid more for the last 20 rounds of brass for my .444 Marlin than 2 bags of these. As far as I'm concerned these can be disposable. They were convenient because Lyman had data for both buckshot and roundball in these.
I looked at the Federal website and didn't find much.I'll email them and ask for their guidance. Great idea sir!
The more I read and now have a basic understanding of what I'm working with, I'll be able to make better decisions once I start reloading.

[gpidaho]

Ralph: Proceed with caution but you can check the data on the various federal hulls and you'll see that there isn't a HUGE difference one hull to the other. Find out the composition and size of the base wad in the hulls you have and compare to other Federal hulls and use the data for the closest match. Use a forgiving powder that has a large spread from minimum to maximum. I like Blue Dot, Longshot or Steel. For Round ball, Slugs or Buckshot. With .735 Round ball I've used as little as 32gr. of Blue Dot and as much as 44gr. out of a cylinder bore. Start low and watch for pressure signs as posted by Ajay. Good luck and enjoy the new challenge. Gp

[longbow]

I note that you bought primed hulls and these came with Federal 209A primers. That is a "hot" primer so if you are loading to max. or near max pressures it is best to use a recipe that specifies Federal 209A primer or drop your powder charge a bit. How much you ask? Well, I'm not exactly sure but say 5% anyway,

Here is a good article on primers by Tom Armbrust:

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

One of my other reloading manuals says that primer substitutions can affect pressure by up to 3000 PSI, up or down, with no other changes. Be very careful with substitutions! This is part of the black magic of shotshell reloading and why it is best to stick with published load data.

This looks like the current version of the manual I got but smaller:

https://www.federalpremium.com/on/de...ading-data.pdf

Your hulls should be "12 Gauge 2 3⁄4˝ Hunting-Type Plastic Case" If you read the fine print it says "paper basewad".

If you want a simple approach you can use the Lee data which identifies hulls simply as tapered one piece hulls or plastic hulls with paper base wad:

https://www.titanreloading.com/image...DF/12gauge.pdf

These will not be high performance buckshot or slug loads but using equal weight payload they will be safe.

You can use any birdshot load data from any manual and substitute equal weight payload with slug or buckshot though buckshot may make for a long payload. Again, these won't be high performance slug or buckshot loads but they will be safe.

If you want to push the limits then stick with published data exactly because seemingly small changes can have large effects on pressure.

Play but play safe!

Longbow

[ralph029]

Ralph: Proceed with caution but you can check the data on the various federal hulls and you'll see that there isn't a HUGE difference one hull to the other. Find out the composition and size of the base wad in the hulls you have and compare to other Federal hulls and use the data for the closest match. Use a forgiving powder that has a large spread from minimum to maximum. I like Blue Dot, Longshot or Steel. For Round ball, Slugs or Buckshot. With .735 Round ball I've used as little as 32gr. of Blue Dot and as much as 44gr. out of a cylinder bore. Start low and watch for pressure signs as posted by Ajay. Good luck and enjoy the new challenge. Gp

gp, I think that before I tried my first large quantity of reloads with "tinkered" data, I really should stick with published info. I've been reloading long enough to understand the changes caused by small, seemingly insignificant changes. I'm concerned I do not know enough about this new world of shotshells to know when to say when. I'd rather put these shells on a shelf and buy something different that I can find easy to obtain data on and start there. I can always come back to these once I know something
I choose Blue Dot and Unique powders for my first loads. After researching powders, it appeared that Blue Dot was pretty widely used in a lot of applications. In the world of big bore metallic reloading, Unique is a good ol' stand by (as I'm sure you know) (even though it's horrible dirty) and I was hoping that carried over to shotshells as well.

[longbow]

Found some more info. Yours woul dbe the Federal High Power with rolled paper basewad:

https://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fr...liant_1996.pdf

There's some buckshot and slug load data here too.

[ralph029]

I note that you bought primed hulls and these came with Federal 209A primers. That is a "hot" primer so if you are loading to max. or near max pressures it is best to use a recipe that specifies Federal 209A primer or drop your powder charge a bit. How much you ask? Well, I'm not exactly sure but say 5% anyway,

Here is a good article on primers by Tom Armbrust:

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

One of my other reloading manuals says that primer substitutions can affect pressure by up to 3000 PSI, up or down, with no other changes. Be very careful with substitutions! This is part of the black magic of shotshell reloading and why it is best to stick with published load data.

This looks like the current version of the manual I got but smaller:

https://www.federalpremium.com/on/de...ading-data.pdf

Your hulls should be "12 Gauge 2 3⁄4˝ Hunting-Type Plastic Case" If you read the fine print it says "paper basewad".

If you want a simple approach you can use the Lee data which identifies hulls simply as tapered one piece hulls or plastic hulls with paper base wad:

https://www.titanreloading.com/image...DF/12gauge.pdf

These will not be high performance buckshot or slug loads but using equal weight payload they will be safe.

You can use any birdshot load data from any manual and substitute equal weight payload with slug or buckshot though buckshot may make for a long payload. Again, these won't be high performance slug or buckshot loads but they will be safe.

If you want to push the limits then stick with published data exactly because seemingly small changes can have large effects on pressure.

Play but play safe!

Longbow

Hi longbow. Thanks for the info. Like I told gp, I really do not wish to monkey with a published load to make it work right out of the gate. I'll save that for when I learn more. I can put these hulls on the shelf and pick up other ones to get started. I was trying to keep my pressures south of 10K and my velocities around 1000 - 1200 fps. BTW... I did pick these shells because of a recipe in the Lyman Handbook. I was going to reload a bunch, head out into the desert, have some fun and put a different primer in the hulls for roundball.
I'll reach out to Federal and see if I can get a copy of that guide. You can NEVER have too much reloading data around
You said, "You can use any birdshot load data from any manual and substitute equal weight payload with slug or buckshot" which got me to thinking. In the metallic world a change in boolit shape can alter the ballistic characteristics even if the boolit is the same caliber and same weight. Is this not really the case in shotshells or is the difference so negligible that this is a safe substitution? I'm just wondering. I'm sure in all my reading I just haven't come across that answer yet. Thanks again!

[ralph029]

This looks like the current version of the manual I got but smaller:

https://www.federalpremium.com/on/de...ading-data.pdf

Your hulls should be "12 Gauge 2 3⁄4˝ Hunting-Type Plastic Case" If you read the fine print it says "paper basewad".

BTW... I looked that link over before I wrote my first post today and that's actually what got me off on this tangent. When I couldn't ID my Federal hull on the Federal website... aarruugghh!

[ralph029]

Found some more info. Yours woul dbe the Federal High Power with rolled paper basewad:

https://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fr...liant_1996.pdf

There's some buckshot and slug load data here too.

Thank you sir!

[longbow]

A common practice is to simply replace a birdshot load with a slug of equal weight. Pressure test loads have shown that the slugs develop less pressure due to lower bore friction than shot loads.

Having said that, that applies to "standard" slug designs and diameters. If you were to load up hard cast slugs that were say 0.010" over bore diameter things would likely be different.

Typical Foster style hollow base slugs fall into this category as do Lee Drive Key slugs which many people use in factory birdshot loads by dumping the shot then replacing with a Lee 7/8 oz. or 1 oz. slug in a 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. factory load.Randy Buchanan does this with his round ball and slug loads. He uses a 0.662" ball loaded to 1 oz. birdshot load data with great success. Another proponent of this is Petander from Finland who has done this in both 12 ga. and 20 ga. with great success. For him the factory birdshot loads are cheaper than reloading so he turns them into round ball loads.

It doesn't have to be fancy to work! These are safe and sane loads that shoot well and don't beat you senseless with recoil as slug specific loads tend to do as they are usually loaded to max. pressures and velocities.

Longbow